Is there going to be a rapture????

[Sean]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

Maybe the Jehova's witless are onto something, they do not celebrate birthdays or any festive days. Kind of depressing if you ask me, but I guess it keeps them healthy or perhaps it is all that walking?

Well, when I get on a binge, I eat like a horse and have to walk a few miles to try to burn it off. It is challenging, when our metabolism slooooows down, our eating should also...LOL.

BTW...They have some decent points regarding some holidays, but they use it as a foot in the door to get a study going. I tolerate that stuff to a degree, but some of the holidays have too much paganism in them to acnowledge them as legitimate for us to participate in.

[Michael The Disciple]

Post Tribulation Rapture Part1

Jesus said he would come for his elect after the great tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matt. 24:29-31

Some say this "elect" only refers to the Jews. However note the Apostle Paul writing to a GENTILE Church refers to them as the elect.

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Colossians 3:12

So in reality Jesus speaks to his elect whether they be Jew or Gentile.

Apostle Paul wrote this to the Thessalonian Church.

1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

Paul tells them when they will receive their rest from Jesus. Did he tell them it would be before the events that take place in the great tribulation? No rather he says it will be when Jesus comes with his mighty angels in great power. He says it would be when Jesus comes wrecking judgment and taking vengeance on the wicked of this world. It was at that time Paul taught Jesus would come.

Paul continues in his teaching to the Thessalonians. They were having questions about the timing of the Lords return, what we call today the "rapture".

2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-6

He tells them expressly the things that withold the revelation of Jesus Christ. There would take place a great falling away first. Then the man of sin
(the beast) would be revealed. This man of sin would set himself up to be worshipped as god.

The prophet Daniel gives some insight about this prophetic figure.

11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. Daniel 11:36-37

This evil King must first appear on Earth before the rapture.

It is also interesting to note the similarity of thought between the way Paul starts the exhortation in 2 Thessalonians 2:1

2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

And the wording of Jesus about his coming in Matt. 24:30-31

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Each of them mentions the coming of Jesus and our gathering together to him. In my opinion this leaves no doubt they are both telling about the same event.

[kclee4jc]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Post Tribulation Rapture Part1

Jesus said he would come for his elect after the great tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matt. 24:29-31

Some say this "elect" only refers to the Jews. However note the Apostle Paul writing to a GENTILE Church refers to them as the elect.

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Colossians 3:12

So in reality Jesus speaks to his elect whether they be Jew or Gentile.

Apostle Paul wrote this to the Thessalonian Church.

1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

Paul tells them when they will receive their rest from Jesus. Did he tell them it would be before the events that take place in the great tribulation? No rather he says it will be when Jesus comes with his mighty angels in great power. He says it would be when Jesus comes wrecking judgment and taking vengeance on the wicked of this world. It was at that time Paul taught Jesus would come.

Paul continues in his teaching to the Thessalonians. They were having questions about the timing of the Lords return, what we call today the "rapture".

2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-6

He tells them expressly the things that withold the revelation of Jesus Christ. There would take place a great falling away first. Then the man of sin
(the beast) would be revealed. This man of sin would set himself up to be worshipped as god.

The prophet Daniel gives some insight about this prophetic figure.

11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. Daniel 11:36-37

This evil King must first appear on Earth before the rapture.

It is also interesting to note the similarity of thought between the way Paul starts the exhortation in 2 Thessalonians 2:1

2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

And the wording of Jesus about his coming in Matt. 24:30-31

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Each of them mentions the coming of Jesus and our gathering together to him. In my opinion this leaves no doubt they are both telling about the same event.

Read a book by an Apostolic Brother a while back that used this scripture to establish a distinction between the rapture and the second coming. If that is the case the same logic would have to be used in the beginning of chapter 1 as well.


1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians [which is] in God the Father and [in] the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Post Tribulation Rapture Part1

Jesus said he would come for his elect after the great tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matt. 24:29-31

Some say this "elect" only refers to the Jews. However note the Apostle Paul writing to a GENTILE Church refers to them as the elect.

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Colossians 3:12

So in reality Jesus speaks to his elect whether they be Jew or Gentile.


Brother Michael, in reality, anyone at anytime that the Lord claims is the "elect"...as you stated, it is for Jew or Gentile. There will be a "harvest of souls in Matt.25 and that is the proper explanation of this particular gathering. It will be folks of ALL nations...this is a further explanation of the passage you presented in Matt. 24, referred to as "the gathering"... 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Apostle Paul wrote this to the Thessalonian Church.

1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

Paul tells them when they will receive their rest from Jesus. Did he tell them it would be before the events that take place in the great tribulation? No rather he says it will be when Jesus comes with his mighty angels in great power. He says it would be when Jesus comes wrecking judgment and taking vengeance on the wicked of this world. It was at that time Paul taught Jesus would come.

Michael, verse 10 says no such thing as a catching away here. It is speaking of the beginning of the Millennial, and the saints right on his coattails here....This is "when he shall come" to the world and destroy the antichrist. Watch the saints glorify him before the marriage supper and during the destruction of the antichrists' system and followers.... Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

Paul continues in his teaching to the Thessalonians. They were having questions about the timing of the Lords return, what we call today the "rapture".

2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-6

He tells them expressly the things that withold the revelation of Jesus Christ. There would take place a great falling away first. Then the man of sin
(the beast) would be revealed. This man of sin would set himself up to be worshipped as god.


Absolutely bro. The church will actually be at the doors of the tribulation. We most likely will know who the antichrist is, but we will not be here during the last half of the Tribulation to experience the wrath of God with the sinners. Luke 21:28...And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh

The prophet Daniel gives some insight about this prophetic figure.

11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women...this is just a freebee bro. but Baxter says this passage means the desire of women is to have babies. The antichrist may cause forced birth control on the population(against the desire of women), for what its worth...


, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. Daniel 11:36-37

This evil King must first appear on Earth before the rapture.

As I stated above, I believe he will also. But the sleeping church, like it is today, will be generally unaware of who he is. THEN THE RAPTURE HAPPENS(to a sleeping bride). Most Christian folks are already numb to the signs of the end times.

It is also interesting to note the similarity of thought between the way Paul starts the exhortation in 2 Thessalonians 2:1

2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

And the wording of Jesus about his coming in Matt. 24:30-31

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Each of them mentions the coming of Jesus and our gathering together to him. In my opinion this leaves no doubt they are both telling about the same event.

Brother, there is a separate coming or "gathering" for us and there is a separate gathering for the world...Check out Matt 25...

This is OUR gathering... 5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


This is the "worlds" gathering,,,good and evil folks together...1 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

[Michael The Disciple]

Post Tribulation Rapture Pt2

Apostle Paul had previously written this to the Thessalonians.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Here he deals with both the coming of Jesus and the resurrection of the dead. He puts both events happening about the same time. If we can pinpoint the timing of the resurrection we will also be discovering the timing of the rapture.

The Apostle gives more light in his writing to the Corinthians.

1 Cor. 15:51-52

15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

We are told plainly that the dead will be raised and all saints will be changed at the last trump.

So the trumpet that sounds at the coming of Jesus in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 that raises the dead must be this same trumpet. In this scripture however we are given the revelation that this trumpet is THE LAST TRUMP.

Our next step is to zero in on when the LAST TRUMPET sounds if possible. Is it possible? Definitely!

If one follows the sequence of the book of Revelation we see there are seven trumpets that lead up to the coming of Jesus. The seventh or LAST TRUMP is blown right here.

Rev. 11:15-18

Rev. 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

So the last trump is when Jesus comes to "rapture" or gather together his saints. We can see very plainly when it occurs in the book of Revelation. It is at the same time Jesus Christ takes over the kingdoms of this world and begins to rule over them!

This obviously happens after the tribulation. It is the time when the dead are judged and rewarded. This puts us at Pauls teaching to the saints back to these two scriptures proving they are post trib in context.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, 1 Corinthians 15: 51-52

One more proof text should be sufficient to show the coming of Jesus and the resurrection of the dead are post tribulation events.

Rev. 20:1-6

20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Here we see the FIRST RESURRECTION has taken place. It is after saints have been killed for refusing to take the mark of the beast. That means the first resurrection is after the great tribulation.

So this effectively removes the scripture pre trib teachers use the most to prove their doctrine.

1 Thessalonian 4:16-17

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Since resurrection and rapture are similtaneous and the first resurrection is after the trib these two scriptures can be identified as not teaching a pre but rather a post tribulation rapture.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Post Tribulation Rapture Pt2

Apostle Paul had previously written this to the Thessalonians.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Here he deals with both the coming of Jesus and the resurrection of the dead. He puts both events happening about the same time. If we can pinpoint the timing of the resurrection we will also be discovering the timing of the rapture.

The Apostle gives more light in his writing to the Corinthians.

1 Cor. 15:51-52

15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

We are told plainly that the dead will be raised and all saints will be changed at the last trump.

So the trumpet that sounds at the coming of Jesus in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 that raises the dead must be this same trumpet. In this scripture however we are given the revelation that this trumpet is THE LAST TRUMP.

Our next step is to zero in on when the LAST TRUMPET sounds if possible. Is it possible? Definitely!

If one follows the sequence of the book of Revelation we see there are seven trumpets that lead up to the coming of Jesus. The seventh or LAST TRUMP is blown right here.

Rev. 11:15-18

Rev. 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

So the last trump is when Jesus comes to "rapture" or gather together his saints. We can see very plainly when it occurs in the book of Revelation. It is at the same time Jesus Christ takes over the kingdoms of this world and begins to rule over them!

This obviously happens after the tribulation. It is the time when the dead are judged and rewarded. This puts us at Pauls teaching to the saints back to these two scriptures proving they are post trib in context.


Actually Michael, the Antichrist is not even revealed until chapter 13....If this is the rapture, it is in the 1st half of the tribulation(within the 1st 3.5 years).... Interesting analogy though, I initially told you I was pre trib with an asterisk. We will never see the antichrist revealed according to this passage in Rev.11(He is revealed in chapter 13). There are still 8 chapters of judgement on mankind during the Great Tribulation that we will completely miss here.


1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, 1 Corinthians 15: 51-52

One more proof text should be sufficient to show the coming of Jesus and the resurrection of the dead are post tribulation events.

Rev. 20:1-6

20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Here we see the FIRST RESURRECTION has taken place. It is after saints have been killed for refusing to take the mark of the beast. That means the first resurrection is after the great tribulation.

Michael, many folks do not understand that the 1st resurrection is in MULTIPLE parts...this may help here...

1 Cor. 1522 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. There are 2 parts described here...#1, when Jesus resurrected and took the O.T. saints, including the thief on the cross...#2, the "catching away" of the bride(you and I).

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. Now this is the "end" group here....Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Now look at 1 cor 15:25... For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.:

This 3rd group will be exclusively resurrected into new bodies to REIGN with Christ during the millennial.

Now notice the rest of the passage and see how the rapture is in several "parts"...Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.(the word "IS", in connotation, marks the end of the 1st resurrection)

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


(brother also included in their own personal "rapture" are Enoch and Elijah, it is no NEW thing to have multiple parts of the rapture)






So this effectively removes the scripture pre trib teachers use the most to prove their doctrine.

1 Thessalonian 4:16-17

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Since resurrection and rapture are similtaneous and the first resurrection is after the trib these two scriptures can be identified as not teaching a pre but rather a post tribulation rapture.

As I made my point above brother, the Rapture according to Rev.11(if it is), is 8 chapters prior to the end of the Tribulation, and 2 chapters before the arrival of Antichrist. The rapture will for sure be at the doors of the Tribulation, but we are in no way going through it. Please even consider what I have shown you...Thanks bro.

[Michael The Disciple]

Post Tribulation Rapture Pt3


Another way of proving the post tribulation rapture is by focusing in on what the Apostles called the "day of Christ" or the "day of the Lord".

Before we begin its important to understand this is not speaking of two different days. Rather the day of Christ and the day of the Lord are speaking of the same day.

How do we prove this? Simple.

Acts 2:36

2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Paul says Jesus is BOTH Lord and Christ. Therefore the day of the Lord is the day of Christ. The day of the LORD JESUS CHRIST is also the same thing.

Now the scriptures that speak of the day of Christ or of "the Lord" speak about his coming as we will see.

1 Corinthians 1:7-8

1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 5:5

5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2 Cor. 1:14

1:13 For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end;
1:14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Phillipians 1:6

1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Phillipians 1:10

1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.

Phillipians 2:16

2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ,[/b] that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

1 Thessalonians 5:2

5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night

2 Peter 3:10

3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

So far we see eight scripture portions that tell of "the day of Christ".

I will show you one more which in context will prove that this day of Christs coming to "rapture" his saints will NOT OCCUR at any moment as the pre trib rapture doctrine declares.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-5

2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

So the day of Christ is his coming and the Apostle says it will NOT COME UNTIL AFTER THE MAN OF SIN IS REVEALED.

The man of sin is the "beast" of the book of Revelation. The one that makes war with the saints. The one who forces all to worship him or take his mark.

Paul lets us know the Church will NOT BE RAPTURED until this takes place.

Have you ever been told you may have to die for the name of the Lord Jesus Christ? Are you aware that thousands die every year because they believe in him around the world?

At the end time there will be a tremendous wave of persecution against the saints. Its important to understand this or there would be no point in scripture speaking so much about it.

We as disciples of Jesus need to set our minds on things above. We need to dwell in the secret place of the Most High. We need to be in a place where we are being led by the Spirit and abiding in the love and fellowship of Jesus.

If ours is the generation that is alive when these things happen we will need to avail ourselves of all the Holy Spirit fire and power and love thats possible.

Jesus said "whoever endures to the end will be saved".

Many have already been slain for Jesus Christ over the centuries. They esteemed the walk they had with Jesus and his manifestation to them greater than living another day in this world.

Is that the way you feel about Jesus? He will give you all the grace you need to be an overcomer unto the death.

The reward thats waiting.....eternal life with him. This is what we live for whether we mat be called upon to lay down our lives literally or not.

We all have to die somehow. May Jesus help us to be like his Apostles who when they were beaten for his name "rejoiced they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name".

If you really know him you know it will be worth it all when we SEE HIM!

[Sean]

Michael, that is a great series of posts you did. However, may I rebut them? I have not put together anything to that effect, but I differ with you in some of those interpretations(which, I am sure that you are aware of). I dont think anyone actually knows exactly when Jesus will return in the Tribulation, but our opinion is of value to our message we preach to the world. Thanks

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Sean

Michael, that is a great series of posts you did. However, may I rebut them? I have not put together anything to that effect, but I differ with you in some of those interpretations(which, I am sure that you are aware of). I dont think anyone actually knows exactly when Jesus will return in the Tribulation, but our opinion is of value to our message we preach to the world. Thanks

Its a free forum go for it. However did you READ my studies? If you actually DO you probably wont need to try to refute it because you will see the truth.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Its a free forum go for it. However did you READ my studies? If you actually DO you probably wont need to try to refute it because you will see the truth.

No I didnt, I dont have anything on paper myself, just a head full of passages and their interpretations. I used SFT all these years and got into it with mid and post trib folks from time to time, but I know where you are going and where you stand, just by reading your posts. Keep in mind, with me, it it my point of view and we are only talking about the timing of the Lords' return.

Its no big deal between us bro., but I believe my message is a greater message of hope than post trib. And I think I have enough of the scripture to confidently teach it.


I realize I am up against one of the "greats" in Irvin Baxter. I just heard him get smoked though by a trinitarian on a TV program debate recently. When I saw that, I realized this concept was still up for grabs and nobody, including myself, has it set in stone.

My rebuttal will be only to give us a different point of view if you dont mind.