Homosexuality question

[houston]

CJ,

What was the purpose of Calvary if everyone gets to go to heaven after this life?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by houston

CJ,

What was the purpose of Calvary if everyone gets to go to heaven after this life?

They believe that Calvary secured salvation for everyone.

[Pressing-On]

Some great points in this article. Posted the two that I really agreed with.

Some fail, and some succeed. Some experience radical change, others do not.

But isn't this similar to what happens in many areas of life, where some people are greatly helped by a specific type of counseling or a unique spiritual experience, and others point to that same counseling or experience as being destructive in their lives?

But if we focus on changing someone from homosexuality to heterosexuality rather than from homosexuality to holiness, there is the possibility of great frustration and even disappointment and backsliding.

http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/...RightColBottom

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by houston

CJ,

What was the purpose of Calvary if everyone gets to go to heaven after this life?

If it was needful for a few, why not for the many?

[Aquila]

I had posted this in another thread, I thought I'd share it here.

Genetic anomaly. An "infirmity" of the flesh to be recognized, overcome, and prayerfully healed.

Sin has affected us down to the genetic level. Don't believe me? We get sick, get old, and die as a result of sin. Many are born from healthy parents with various genetic anomalies. Think of it this way... our entire biology is fallen.

Everyone is born a sinner. Everyone's flesh is predisposed to some form of sinful proclivity as the result of hormones and genetics.

No one is born... "perfect". We need to ditch the myth that human beings are born perfect and flawless. We're born corrupted. We are born with genetic time bombs in our nature that can trigger many different developmental, hormonal, and behavioral proclivities. Genetic makeup can even predispose one to specific diseases and conditions. This is why the SPIRIT must overcome the FLESH.

Now, we have to have the wisdom to understand that just because someone is born with a given condition, it doesn't mean that it's God's will. Some are born with abnormalities to the cerebral cortex of the brain leaving them predisposed to violent and impulsive behaviors. Did God create them to be violent and impulsive people? Nope. Sin, through our fallen state, did that to them. Now, does that mean that they are doomed? Nope. God has provided grace and mercy for us in our fallen humanity. And God has also provided the possibility of healing wherever it might apply.

We constantly hear that being gay is a "choice". However, many have felt a predisposition towards the same gender, with the hormonal chemistry to follow, as early as 5 years old... before they had any real understanding of sex and/or its physical pleasures. That's not really a "choice". Now, we can argue that choosing to act on those attractions is a "choice"... but the attractions themselves appear to be innate in many, if not most. I never made a "choice" to be straight. It was innate to my development. Now, I can choose to act on those desires or choose not to. But being "straight" in and of itself wasn't a choice for me.

While sex isn't a "need" to sustain life. It is classified as a "need" for general happiness and well being. And the vast majority of people will seek to satisfy their sexual needs in some way shape or form that suits their given interests and desires. Hormones often drive these needs. As people age and their hormone levels decrees and stabilize and decrease. Also, their biological response to pheromones (regardless of what gender associated with said pheromones) decreases. Also, in blind studies, those who profess being homosexual responded neurologically to same gender pheromones whereas those professing to be heterosexual responded neurologically to pheromones from the opposite gender. Our sexual drive and attractions are more linked to our biology than many realize. Scientists have even genetically "tweaked" mice to respond to same gender pheromones over those of the opposite gender. Yes, they can make a mouse "gay" by tampering with it's genetics. The human genome is far more complicated and so studies in this area as it relates to human beings is still in progress. However, it is also controversial among some geneticists. I also remember reading about a study involving twins separated at birth. Twins seem to have something like over a 75% chance of having the same or similar sexual proclivities, regardless of upbringing or environment.

So... my point is... yes... I do believe there is a possible "genetic link" and that many are "born" with this proclivity. However, being born with an anomaly as the result of one's fallen nature doesn't automatically mean said anomaly has God's approval.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I had posted this in another thread, I thought I'd share it here.

Genetic anomaly. An "infirmity" of the flesh to be recognized, overcome, and prayerfully healed.

Sin has affected us down to the genetic level. Don't believe me? We get sick, get old, and die as a result of sin. Many are born from healthy parents with various genetic anomalies. Think of it this way... our entire biology is fallen.

Everyone is born a sinner. Everyone's flesh is predisposed to some form of sinful proclivity as the result of hormones and genetics.

No one is born... "perfect". We need to ditch the myth that human beings are born perfect and flawless. We're born corrupted. We are born with genetic time bombs in our nature that can trigger many different developmental, hormonal, and behavioral proclivities. Genetic makeup can even predispose one to specific diseases and conditions. This is why the SPIRIT must overcome the FLESH.

Now, we have to have the wisdom to understand that just because someone is born with a given condition, it doesn't mean that it's God's will. Some are born with abnormalities to the cerebral cortex of the brain leaving them predisposed to violent and impulsive behaviors. Did God create them to be violent and impulsive people? Nope. Sin, through our fallen state, did that to them. Now, does that mean that they are doomed? Nope. God has provided grace and mercy for us in our fallen humanity. And God has also provided the possibility of healing wherever it might apply.

We constantly hear that being gay is a "choice". However, many have felt a predisposition towards the same gender, with the hormonal chemistry to follow, as early as 5 years old... before they had any real understanding of sex and/or its physical pleasures. That's not really a "choice". Now, we can argue that choosing to act on those attractions is a "choice"... but the attractions themselves appear to be innate in many, if not most. I never made a "choice" to be straight. It was innate to my development. Now, I can choose to act on those desires or choose not to. But being "straight" in and of itself wasn't a choice for me.

While sex isn't a "need" to sustain life. It is classified as a "need" for general happiness and well being. And the vast majority of people will seek to satisfy their sexual needs in some way shape or form that suits their given interests and desires. Hormones often drive these needs. As people age and their hormone levels decrees and stabilize and decrease. Also, their biological response to pheromones (regardless of what gender associated with said pheromones) decreases. Also, in blind studies, those who profess being homosexual responded neurologically to same gender pheromones whereas those professing to be heterosexual responded neurologically to pheromones from the opposite gender. Our sexual drive and attractions are more linked to our biology than many realize. Scientists have even genetically "tweaked" mice to respond to same gender pheromones over those of the opposite gender. Yes, they can make a mouse "gay" by tampering with it's genetics. The human genome is far more complicated and so studies in this area as it relates to human beings is still in progress. However, it is also controversial among some geneticists. I also remember reading about a study involving twins separated at birth. Twins seem to have something like over a 75% chance of having the same or similar sexual proclivities, regardless of upbringing or environment.

So... my point is... yes... I do believe there is a possible "genetic link" and that many are "born" with this proclivity. However, being born with an anomaly as the result of one's fallen nature doesn't automatically mean said anomaly has God's approval.

My response from the other thread.

I believe that we can be born with abmoralities and maladies. However, I don't believe we can be born with a sexual preference that contradicts God's Word. PMS and menopause are a natural hormonal response in a woman's body. That isn't abnormal. It isn't any more abnormal than puberty and what that entails.

We have much more sickness today do to our food supply and the vaccines we put in our bodies. For instance, today, people are getting shingles - a result of the chickenpox vaccines years ago. That can mess up your body chemistry for sure. Actually, I read a link, some time back, a foreign scientist (can't recall his name) saying vaccines can change the hormonal chemistry causing some to become gay. You can check out the effects of soybean on a boy's body as well.

I'm sure you have seen the video clip with Bill Gates boldly speaking about how we can use vaccines to cut down on world population. A rich, rich man who wants to own and manage the world.

You are saying that God has purposely formed and created a person into something He condemns. I don't see that as plausible nor acceptable. Having a propensity to sin because of our sinful nature is very plausible. With my fallen nature I "can become" anything I give myself over to being. As I stated, I "can become" a thief, but I wasn't born a thief.

I would look more toward manmade causes for this phenomena in the body before I would look at God as the cause. I also know that some won't want that discussion as we love our doctors and our medicine. It's just that we have more hospitals and clinics than we do churches. Something has gone amiss. Someone is making the big bucks and using us as the Guinea pigs.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

My response from the other thread.

I believe that we can be born with abmoralities and maladies. However, I don't believe we can be born with a sexual preference that contradicts God's Word. PMS and menopause are a natural hormonal response in a woman's body. That isn't abnormal. It isn't any more abnormal than puberty and what that entails.

Here's a link explaining how pheromones work. As you read it, keep in mind that based on blind studies, those who claimed to be homosexual neurologically responded to the pheromones of the same gender. Those who claimed to be heterosexual responded neurologically responded to pheromones from the opposite gender. This is believed to begin in our species very early, explaining why many homosexuals claim they have always been homosexual and never "chose" to be. While the mere sight and scent of my babysitter (Tammy) would send me giggling and blushing as a 3 year old... another male 3 year old child finds themselves giggling and blushing at the sight and scent of their dad's fishing buddy (Herald). lol

Everything in us contradicts Gods' Word from birth... until we are born again (Regeneration).

We have much more sickness today do to our food supply and the vaccines we put in our bodies. For instance, today, people are getting shingles - a result of the chickenpox vaccines years ago. That can mess up your body chemistry for sure. Actually, I read a link, some time back, a foreign scientist (can't recall his name) saying vaccines can change the hormonal chemistry causing some to become gay. You can check out the effects of soybean on a boy's body as well.

I'm sure you have seen the video clip with Bill Gates boldly speaking about how we can use vaccines to cut down on world population. A rich, rich man who wants to own and manage the world.

Very interesting.

You are saying that God has purposely formed and created a person into something He condemns. I don't see that as plausible nor acceptable. Having a propensity to sin because of our sinful nature is very plausible. With my fallen nature I "can become" anything I give myself over to being. As I stated, I "can become" a thief, but I wasn't born a thief.

We have people born with horrific and yes, even painful, deformities. Did God purposefully form and create a person to be disfigured and suffer, sometimes struggling for breath itself? Nope. Abnormalities happen. As you suggested they can result from drugs, maybe vaccines, various types of food... and yes... sometimes it just happens due to some fateful chromosomal combination. God isn't the author of these abnormalities. God created man in sinless perfection without any abnormality, disease, or imperfection. Again, it is sin itself that has caused us to have to endure this fallen state. And sadly, this is often made manifest from birth itself.

While we can't say that one is born a thief or a gambler... we do know that some appear to be hardwired for a predisposition towards various behaviors. For some, the levels of adrenaline and dopamine created in the brain when stealing or gambling are greater than others, thereby leaving them predisposed toward becoming habitual with regards to these behaviors more than others.

I would look more toward manmade causes for this phenomena in the body before I would look at God as the cause. I also know that some won't want that discussion as we love our doctors and our medicine. It's just that we have more hospitals and clinics than we do churches. Something has gone amiss. Someone is making the big bucks and using us as the Guinea pigs.

Again, God isn't the cause. Sin is. It has corrupted our nature. Like a computer virus that has infected and corrupted our system files, causing us to work and function differently than the way we as a species was originally designed to function.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Here's a link explaining how pheromones work. As you read it, keep in mind that based on blind studies, those who claimed to be homosexual neurologically responded to the pheromones of the same gender. Those who claimed to be heterosexual responded neurologically responded to pheromones from the opposite gender. This is believed to begin in our species very early, explaining why many homosexuals claim they have always been homosexual and never "chose" to be. While the mere sight and scent of my babysitter (Tammy) would send me giggling and blushing as a 3 year old... another male 3 year old child finds themselves giggling and blushing at the sight and scent of their dad's fishing buddy (Herald). lol

Everything in us contradicts Gods' Word from birth... until we are born again (Regeneration).




Very interesting.



We have people born with horrific and yes, even painful, deformities. Did God purposefully form and create a person to be disfigured and suffer, sometimes struggling for breath itself? Nope. Abnormalities happen. As you suggested they can result from drugs, maybe vaccines, various types of food... and yes... sometimes it just happens due to some fateful chromosomal combination. God isn't the author of these abnormalities. God created man in sinless perfection without any abnormality, disease, or imperfection. Again, it is sin itself that has caused us to have to endure this fallen state. And sadly, this is often made manifest from birth itself.

While we can't say that one is born a thief or a gambler... we do know that some appear to be hardwired for a predisposition towards various behaviors. For some, the levels of adrenaline and dopamine created in the brain when stealing or gambling are greater than others, thereby leaving them predisposed toward becoming habitual with regards to these behaviors more than others.



Again, God isn't the cause. Sin is. It has corrupted our nature. Like a computer virus that has infected and corrupted our system files, causing us to work and function differently than the way we as a species was originally designed to function.

I don't have much more to add to this discussion. In one article that I posted I agree with this statement - "a closer examination of the scientific evidence reveals that the “nature vs. nurture” debate over homosexuality is far from settled."

The author goes on to say - "At best, the evidence for a genetic and/or biological basis to homosexual orientation is inconclusive. In fact, since the early 1990s, numerous studies attempting to establish a genetic cause for homosexuality have not proven to be valid or repeatable – two important requirements for study results to become accepted as fact in the scientific community.

Because of this, the current thinking in the scientific community is that homosexuality is likely caused by a complex interaction of psychosocial, environmental and possible biological factors. And the two leading national psychiatric and psychological professional groups agree that, so far, there are no conclusive studies supporting any specific biological or genetic cause for homosexuality." (1)

(1) “Fact Sheet on Gay Lesbian Bisexual Issues,” the American Psychiatric Association, May 2000; and “American Psychological Association Online: Answers to Your Questions/Topic – Sexuality/What causes a person to have a particular sexual orientation?,” www.apa.org/topics/sorientation.html.

http://www.citizenlink.com/2010/06/1...?skip_splash=1

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I don't have much more to add to this discussion. In one article that I posted I agree with this statement - "a closer examination of the scientific evidence reveals that the “nature vs. nurture” debate over homosexuality is far from settled."

The author goes on to say - "At best, the evidence for a genetic and/or biological basis to homosexual orientation is inconclusive. In fact, since the early 1990s, numerous studies attempting to establish a genetic cause for homosexuality have not proven to be valid or repeatable – two important requirements for study results to become accepted as fact in the scientific community.

Because of this, the current thinking in the scientific community is that homosexuality is likely caused by a complex interaction of psychosocial, environmental and possible biological factors. And the two leading national psychiatric and psychological professional groups agree that, so far, there are no conclusive studies supporting any specific biological or genetic cause for homosexuality." (1)

(1) “Fact Sheet on Gay Lesbian Bisexual Issues,” the American Psychiatric Association, May 2000; and “American Psychological Association Online: Answers to Your Questions/Topic – Sexuality/What causes a person to have a particular sexual orientation?,” www.apa.org/topics/sorientation.html.

http://www.citizenlink.com/2010/06/1...?skip_splash=1

I can agree with "possible biological factors". I also believe that it's not strictly genetic or biological.

Seeing this possibility, I believe it's important to assume it might be a factor when dealing with those struggling with this issue.

I mean, I'd laugh if someone told me that I had to make the choice to stop being "straight". LOL

Hmmm... I just had an interesting thought. I know that some behavioral analysts claim that most people are not 100% gay or 100% straight, but rather they are along a spectrum along the middle, but closer to either one of the preferences in question. The closer one gets to the 100% point on either end of the spectrum, obviously the less likely one will sense there is a "choice" in the matter. Could it be that those who feel it is a "choice" believe it is because indeed, for them, "they" could "choose" to be gay or straight? For the rest of us... we can't fathom the notion? LOL

[Esaias]

What if God already saved everybody he's gonna save? What if we today hear the gospel merely as a testimony against us?