Deep Apostolic Teachers?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by bishoph

Bro. Jason, I understand your argument, however, you have not addressed the majority of my post......you are a scholarly young man, and even though I strongly disagree with the direction you have taken doctrinally (based on what I have read on this forum) I value your writings and enjoy discussions from time to time. That said.....again you have ignored the greater part of my post.

Thank you. I think I answered in my long post.

Originally Posted by bishoph

The fact remains that if tithe was originally a tenth (which it was) and if tithes were given under the law, then the church should be more generous NOT less.

See my comments above. This philosophy is damaging.

Originally Posted by bishoph

I do believe that the early church had the law as a precedent and therefore because they were a tithing culture/people giving was probably a non-issue to them.

I agree taht the Jewish chruch had the law as a precedent and tithing propbably wasn't an issue to them. In fact we know that Jewish Christians still participated in the Jewish Feasts (thus we can assume they brought agricultural tithes) and continued to observe Judaism until the fall of the 2nd Temple.

However, it is a real stretch to assume this extended beyond the borders of Israel or outside of cultural Judaism. There is NO proof that the early Gentile church did anything except for take up a collection and then provide for the needy with that collection. They had no need to "tithe" because they didn't have buildings (meeting in homes will keep the overhead down), didn't have A/C, pews to buy, or sound systems, didn't have professional ministry (even in Jewish culture it was a shame for a Levite NOT to have a trade-this whole full time priest/pastor idea has a lot more to do with paganism that Judaism or Biblical Christianity), thus for those reasons and more the Gentile churches had no need to tithe. If my information is wrong pelase correct me. I've read David Bernards History of Christian Doctrine (all 3 volumes, twice-he pretty much avoids the doctrine of tithing all together), Lattourette's History of Christianity, he says tithing didn't become universally accepted until well after the Catholic institution was established and it was taken out of the OT to support the number of priests and upkeep of the buildings. I'm reading Schaff's History of the Christian church, I'm in the 3rd volume (4th century) and thus far churches only took up freewill offerings, and in reading F.F. Bruce's New Testament History in which he focused primarily on the 1st century for over 500 pages, nothing about tithing in the churches.

I've studied and am still studying, but your argument here is just trying to connect imaginary dots. Just because the apostles were Jewish doesn't mean they didn't understand that the tithe was for the people of Israel to support the Levitical priesthood, and NOT for the Gentiles, in fact they would have understood this quite clearly.

Originally Posted by bishoph

Because of their strong "law" based giving structure the "freewill" offerings were most likely MORE than a tithe not less. Remember the early church was a Judaeo church

Actually the early church was made up of many economically challenged classes, especially women (most who weren't allowed to work unless they worked as a harlot) and slaves.

See here's a major point. If tithing is a requirement, then it is a requirement for all believers of all times, regardless of culture, economic situation, etc. If you get a dollar, you give a time, and it doesn't matter if you live in an affluent nation or a third world country. Not only is that not biblical, its not logical. In Israel God controlled the nation. He sent the blessing and He withheld the blessing. As His people were obedient to Him he blessed them, when they weren't He chastened them. So the tithe made sense for the Jewish people (again only those who made their living off agriculture had to tithe, no record of fisherman, carpenters, or blacksmiths tithing).

However as the gospel goes out to the Gentile nation there are going to be different cicumstances. There are going to be times of war, famine, dictatorships, the rise of Islam and its oppressive taxes. Communism. All the horrors of the world. Starvation, extreme poverty. If tithing is Biblical and required of believers, it is required no matter what. Thats not what we see in history, its not what we see right now. Tithing ONLY "works" as a universal law for all believers in a culture such as ours.

Originally Posted by bishoph

Regardless of our differences my friend, my main objective in entering this discussion was to point out the judgmental and pompous spirit and attitude that was being spewed out by our friend Sean on this topic. To wish and even pray for pastors and leaders to die because they teach something that you feel is in error is NOT the spirit of Christ. When the disciples saw some not of their persuasion casting out devils in the name of Christ....they forbid them and rebuked them.....Jesus let them know they had the wrong spirit and just a few verses later they wanted to call down fire from heaven and destroy folks who rejected Jesus....yet Jesus rebuked them because they "knew not what spirit they were of." Such diatribe makes it easy for one to say then his teaching must be in error as well, because he says God has told him this and made this MORE IMPORTANT than winning souls and sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Agreed.

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by bishoph

Bro. Jason, I understand your argument, however, you have not addressed the majority of my post......you are a scholarly young man, and even though I strongly disagree with the direction you have taken doctrinally (based on what I have read on this forum) I value your writings and enjoy discussions from time to time. That said.....again you have ignored the greater part of my post. The fact remains that if tithe was originally a tenth (which it was) and if tithes were given under the law, then the church should be more generous NOT less. (I have read some of your posts about tithing and I know that YOU believe in giving abundantly not sparingly/grudgingly, however that is NOT my experience with MOST who hold your opinion.)

I do believe that the early church had the law as a precedent and therefore because they were a tithing culture/people giving was probably a non-issue to them. Because of their strong "law" based giving structure the "freewill" offerings were most likely MORE than a tithe not less. Remember the early church was a Judaeo church and the influence of their Judaism was palpable for many years......I assure you it did influence their giving as well.

Regardless of our differences my friend, my main objective in entering this discussion was to point out the judgmental and pompous spirit and attitude that was being spewed out by our friend Sean on this topic. To wish and even pray for pastors and leaders to die because they teach something that you feel is in error is NOT the spirit of Christ. When the disciples saw some not of their persuasion casting out devils in the name of Christ....they forbid them and rebuked them.....Jesus let them know they had the wrong spirit and just a few verses later they wanted to call down fire from heaven and destroy folks who rejected Jesus....yet Jesus rebuked them because they "knew not what spirit they were of." Such diatribe makes it easy for one to say then his teaching must be in error as well, because he says God has told him this and made this MORE IMPORTANT than winning souls and sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There is NOTHING more important to God than saving the lost......it was/is so important that he robed himself in flesh and died to redeem man from the curse. But NOW correcting the tithe teaching pastors is MORE important.....PLEASE.

Dear Bishop

I fully agree with you.

After Sean threaten to kill people who disagree with him, I simply lost respect for that brother.

This is the same spirit of those so called "Christians" who killed other Christians who disagree with them in a doctrine.

He only displays the hatred he has for his brethren, "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3:15

I have simply put Sean in ignore, I will not longer tolerate the disrespect and abuse he heaps upon brethren who disagree with him.

[bishoph]

The idea that untold thousands of people have lost out with God (backslid) BECAUSE they were asked to, or taught to tithe is hogwash. AND....if ALL churches taught it EXACTLY as Sean believes ("free will") it would NOT change the sinner's opinion one iota. To the unregenerate man, giving to the church is NEVER going to make sense whether it is tithe or "forced" (which is un-biblical 2 Cor. 9:7) or "free-will."

The truth is that where one's heart is their treasure will be. When a person is in love with Jesus, giving will NEVER be an issue to them. Contrary to what Bro. Jason has tried to state, tithing or free-will giving is NOT about performance or trying to gain acceptance, it is NOT about fear or salvation, it is about love and thankfulness, and a sense of duty to help accomplish the mission of the church to reach the world with the gospel. Show me a man who refuses or is reluctant to give and I'll show you a man who has serious relationship problems with God.

Also, regardless of whether you believe in tithing or free-will, IMHO greed and stinginess does bring a curse into our lives. It limits what God and others can bless us with and so much more. When a person pays the "minimum" they forfeit the greater blessing and miss the bigger picture.

FWIW, every offering we receive we make sure all guests know they are under NO obligation to give, they are welcome to if they so choose but we want them to enjoy their time of worship and fellowship without worrying about money. As it relates to our "members" we teach them to give out of love, with joy and NOT because they fear rejection of God or man. The previous pastor told us that no one tithed and very few gave anything at all even though he hammered them constantly about it. Our congregation has tripled in size and the giving is incredible....NOT because folks are scared of hell or because they are worried that they may not meet the approval of their pastor, but because they love God and they are excited about what God is doing in their lives.

We have been working towards the day when we will not take up an offering in our church (with the possible exception of special needs) as I consider it a serious intrusion/distraction into the flow of the spirit.

Unfortunately, however, I am just a hell going, tithe preaching, money grubbing preacher that is doing more harm than good to the poor hoodwinked saints that God has permitted me to pastor.......y'all pray for me......seriously..... I need the prayer......and y'all probably need the practice!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by bishoph

The idea that untold thousands of people have lost out with God (backslid) BECAUSE they were asked to, or taught to tithe is hogwash. AND....if ALL churches taught it EXACTLY as Sean believes ("free will") it would NOT change the sinner's opinion one iota. To the unregenerate man, giving to the church is NEVER going to make sense whether it is tithe or "forced" (which is un-biblical 2 Cor. 9:7) or "free-will."

The truth is that where one's heart is their treasure will be. When a person is in love with Jesus, giving will NEVER be an issue to them. Contrary to what Bro. Jason has tried to state, tithing or free-will giving is NOT about performance or trying to gain acceptance, it is NOT about fear or salvation, it is about love and thankfulness, and a sense of duty to help accomplish the mission of the church to reach the world with the gospel. Show me a man who refuses or is reluctant to give and I'll show you a man who has serious relationship problems with God.

Also, regardless of whether you believe in tithing or free-will, IMHO greed and stinginess does bring a curse into our lives. It limits what God and others can bless us with and so much more. When a person pays the "minimum" they forfeit the greater blessing and miss the bigger picture.

FWIW, every offering we receive we make sure all guests know they are under NO obligation to give, they are welcome to if they so choose but we want them to enjoy their time of worship and fellowship without worrying about money. As it relates to our "members" we teach them to give out of love, with joy and NOT because they fear rejection of God or man. The previous pastor told us that no one tithed and very few gave anything at all even though he hammered them constantly about it. Our congregation has tripled in size and the giving is incredible....NOT because folks are scared of hell or because they are worried that they may not meet the approval of their pastor, but because they love God and they are excited about what God is doing in their lives.

We have been working towards the day when we will not take up an offering in our church (with the possible exception of special needs) as I consider it a serious intrusion/distraction into the flow of the spirit.

Unfortunately, however, I am just a hell going, tithe preaching, money grubbing preacher that is doing more harm than good to the poor hoodwinked saints that God has permitted me to pastor.......y'all pray for me......seriously..... I need the prayer......and y'all probably need the practice!

I love your spirit on this BishopH.

I have no doubts that you are a loving and joyous minister of the Gospel. And I have no doubt, you don't threaten people with Hell over finances.

I know several pastors who don't believe that tithing is a necessity to be saved. However, those who are "members" are admonished to make a commitment (a vow?) to give 10% (tithe). It's up to them as to if they want to make this commitment or not. A commitment to God (a vow?) is indeed a binding commitment. Failure to fulfill one's vows is sin in God's eyes (Deuteronomy 23:21), so it is a serious commitment that can be preached about.

So, in a manner of speaking these "tithe preachers" maintain free will and have a system wherein they can deal compassionately with those who are struggling financially, without condemning them to Hell.

Not all "tithers" are Hellfire and Brimstone on the issue. Many, much like you, believe that tithing is a commitment of love made in accordance to one's own free will.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by bishoph

The idea that untold thousands of people have lost out with God (backslid) BECAUSE they were asked to, or taught to tithe is hogwash. AND....if ALL churches taught it EXACTLY as Sean believes ("free will") it would NOT change the sinner's opinion one iota. To the unregenerate man, giving to the church is NEVER going to make sense whether it is tithe or "forced" (which is un-biblical 2 Cor. 9:7) or "free-will."

Sure it will, when sinners are off the hook when it comes to money, their preconcieved idea of "all the church wants is money" is gone. Then after they are "easily" converted(Acts 2 style), the Holy Ghost will teach them how to and WHO to give to.


The truth is that where one's heart is their treasure will be. When a person is in love with Jesus, giving will NEVER be an issue to them. Contrary to what Bro. Jason has tried to state, tithing or free-will giving is NOT about performance or trying to gain acceptance, it is NOT about fear or salvation, it is about love and thankfulness, and a sense of duty to help accomplish the mission of the church to reach the world with the gospel. Show me a man who refuses or is reluctant to give and I'll show you a man who has serious relationship problems with God.


There it is again Bishop, implying someone is not saved if he is not giving to your standard of measurement. You just cant help it, can you?


Also, regardless of whether you believe in tithing or free-will, IMHO greed and stinginess does bring a curse into our lives. It limits what God and others can bless us with and so much more. When a person pays the "minimum" they forfeit the greater blessing and miss the bigger picture.

Show me in the N.T. where we are "cursed" for not giving please?
There are "blessings" for givers, but not "curses" for non givers. That is a completely man made philosophy that marginalizes the poor to constantly give away everything they have and be pennyless when they are old. I see it all around me and am aquainted with thousands of these very saints in my area.(even in my own family)




FWIW, every offering we receive we make sure all guests know they are under NO obligation to give, they are welcome to if they so choose but we want them to enjoy their time of worship and fellowship without worrying about money. As it relates to our "members" we teach them to give out of love, with joy and NOT because they fear rejection of God or man. The previous pastor told us that no one tithed and very few gave anything at all even though he hammered them constantly about it. Our congregation has tripled in size and the giving is incredible....NOT because folks are scared of hell or because they are worried that they may not meet the approval of their pastor, but because they love God and they are excited about what God is doing in their lives.


That is what I use to hear at the last church I attended...LOL. Now comes the "challenge" that if they are to be saved, they ARE UNDER OBLIGATION to give.....Thats forced giving. Where in the N.T. church is "forced giving" taught.....WHERE?


We have been working towards the day when we will not take up an offering in our church (with the possible exception of special needs) as I consider it a serious intrusion/distraction into the flow of the spirit.

Unfortunately, however, I am just a hell going, tithe preaching, money grubbing preacher that is doing more harm than good to the poor hoodwinked saints that God has permitted me to pastor.......y'all pray for me......seriously..... I need the prayer......and y'all probably need the practice!

Indeed I will Bishop....That is exactly why I am doing this.

[phareztamar]

Originally Posted by bishoph

The idea that untold thousands of people have lost out with God (backslid) BECAUSE they were asked to, or taught to tithe is hogwash. AND....if ALL churches taught it EXACTLY as Sean believes ("free will") it would NOT change the sinner's opinion one iota. To the unregenerate man, giving to the church is NEVER going to make sense whether it is tithe or "forced" (which is un-biblical 2 Cor. 9:7) or "free-will."

The truth is that where one's heart is their treasure will be. When a person is in love with Jesus, giving will NEVER be an issue to them. Contrary to what Bro. Jason has tried to state, tithing or free-will giving is NOT about performance or trying to gain acceptance, it is NOT about fear or salvation, it is about love and thankfulness, and a sense of duty to help accomplish the mission of the church to reach the world with the gospel. Show me a man who refuses or is reluctant to give and I'll show you a man who has serious relationship problems with God.

Also, regardless of whether you believe in tithing or free-will, IMHO greed and stinginess does bring a curse into our lives. It limits what God and others can bless us with and so much more. When a person pays the "minimum" they forfeit the greater blessing and miss the bigger picture.

FWIW, every offering we receive we make sure all guests know they are under NO obligation to give, they are welcome to if they so choose but we want them to enjoy their time of worship and fellowship without worrying about money. As it relates to our "members" we teach them to give out of love, with joy and NOT because they fear rejection of God or man. The previous pastor told us that no one tithed and very few gave anything at all even though he hammered them constantly about it. Our congregation has tripled in size and the giving is incredible....NOT because folks are scared of hell or because they are worried that they may not meet the approval of their pastor, but because they love God and they are excited about what God is doing in their lives.

We have been working towards the day when we will not take up an offering in our church (with the possible exception of special needs) as I consider it a serious intrusion/distraction into the flow of the spirit.

Unfortunately, however, I am just a hell going, tithe preaching, money grubbing preacher that is doing more harm than good to the poor hoodwinked saints that God has permitted me to pastor.......y'all pray for me......seriously..... I need the prayer......and y'all probably need the practice!

Excellent post elder. No sense wasting your good council on Sean. He's a bit beyond reasonable at this point. See's himself as a holy warrior on a mission from God.

[seguidordejesus]

Originally Posted by bishoph

The previous pastor told us that no one tithed and very few gave anything at all even though he hammered them constantly about it. Our congregation has tripled in size and the giving is incredible....NOT because folks are scared of hell or because they are worried that they may not meet the approval of their pastor, but because they love God and they are excited about what God is doing in their lives.

The previous pastor is right - he did hammer it. I went there for two years and he claimed no one tithed (as I was reading the scriptures for him!) and I was tithing! Guess my salary wasn't big enough to notice

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by bishoph

The idea that untold thousands of people have lost out with God (backslid) BECAUSE they were asked to, or taught to tithe is hogwash. AND....if ALL churches taught it EXACTLY as Sean believes ("free will") it would NOT change the sinner's opinion one iota. To the unregenerate man, giving to the church is NEVER going to make sense whether it is tithe or "forced" (which is un-biblical 2 Cor. 9:7) or "free-will."

The truth is that where one's heart is their treasure will be. When a person is in love with Jesus, giving will NEVER be an issue to them. Contrary to what Bro. Jason has tried to state, tithing or free-will giving is NOT about performance or trying to gain acceptance, it is NOT about fear or salvation, it is about love and thankfulness, and a sense of duty to help accomplish the mission of the church to reach the world with the gospel. Show me a man who refuses or is reluctant to give and I'll show you a man who has serious relationship problems with God.

Also, regardless of whether you believe in tithing or free-will, IMHO greed and stinginess does bring a curse into our lives. It limits what God and others can bless us with and so much more. When a person pays the "minimum" they forfeit the greater blessing and miss the bigger picture.

FWIW, every offering we receive we make sure all guests know they are under NO obligation to give, they are welcome to if they so choose but we want them to enjoy their time of worship and fellowship without worrying about money. As it relates to our "members" we teach them to give out of love, with joy and NOT because they fear rejection of God or man. The previous pastor told us that no one tithed and very few gave anything at all even though he hammered them constantly about it. Our congregation has tripled in size and the giving is incredible....NOT because folks are scared of hell or because they are worried that they may not meet the approval of their pastor, but because they love God and they are excited about what God is doing in their lives.

We have been working towards the day when we will not take up an offering in our church (with the possible exception of special needs) as I consider it a serious intrusion/distraction into the flow of the spirit.

Unfortunately, however, I am just a hell going, tithe preaching, money grubbing preacher that is doing more harm than good to the poor hoodwinked saints that God has permitted me to pastor.......y'all pray for me......seriously..... I need the prayer......and y'all probably need the practice!

Excellent post brother.

Remember that about 99% of Apostolic preachers teach tithing.

If these preachers were removed I seriously doubt that the anti-tithe crowd could take over all those sheep of God. Most sheep would be without a shepherd to guide them.

The laborer is worthy of his hire, and I am quite sure that most of the 99% percent of the preachers are worth their hire, maybe a few exception here and there, but we are not going to punish all the preachers just for a few bad apples. (We will simply remove the few bad apples)

The Lord bless you, and keep on collecting those tithes, pay not attention to the disgruntled cheapskate, stingy, miserly anti-tithe crowd.

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by bishoph

The idea that untold thousands of people have lost out with God (backslid) BECAUSE they were asked to, or taught to tithe is hogwash. AND....if ALL churches taught it EXACTLY as Sean believes ("free will") it would NOT change the sinner's opinion one iota. To the unregenerate man, giving to the church is NEVER going to make sense whether it is tithe or "forced" (which is un-biblical 2 Cor. 9:7) or "free-will."

The truth is that where one's heart is their treasure will be. When a person is in love with Jesus, giving will NEVER be an issue to them. Contrary to what Bro. Jason has tried to state, tithing or free-will giving is NOT about performance or trying to gain acceptance, it is NOT about fear or salvation, it is about love and thankfulness, and a sense of duty to help accomplish the mission of the church to reach the world with the gospel. Show me a man who refuses or is reluctant to give and I'll show you a man who has serious relationship problems with God.

Also, regardless of whether you believe in tithing or free-will, IMHO greed and stinginess does bring a curse into our lives. It limits what God and others can bless us with and so much more. When a person pays the "minimum" they forfeit the greater blessing and miss the bigger picture.

FWIW, every offering we receive we make sure all guests know they are under NO obligation to give, they are welcome to if they so choose but we want them to enjoy their time of worship and fellowship without worrying about money. As it relates to our "members" we teach them to give out of love, with joy and NOT because they fear rejection of God or man. The previous pastor told us that no one tithed and very few gave anything at all even though he hammered them constantly about it. Our congregation has tripled in size and the giving is incredible....NOT because folks are scared of hell or because they are worried that they may not meet the approval of their pastor, but because they love God and they are excited about what God is doing in their lives.

We have been working towards the day when we will not take up an offering in our church (with the possible exception of special needs) as I consider it a serious intrusion/distraction into the flow of the spirit.

Unfortunately, however, I am just a hell going, tithe preaching, money grubbing preacher that is doing more harm than good to the poor hoodwinked saints that God has permitted me to pastor.......y'all pray for me......seriously..... I need the prayer......and y'all probably need the practice!

Excellent post brother, we that majority of Apostolic preachers 99% are with you on this issue. so be encouraged.

[Sean]

(Luk 11:42)But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.


Are you a Pharisee, and under the Law? This was spoken to Pharisees under the Law.