Deep Apostolic Teachers?

[Sean]

8 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. 33 I have coveted no man’s silver, or gold, or apparel. 34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. 35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.




Guys, I know I am a little rough regarding this issue, but let me ask you this question....does the above passage exemplify the message you are hearing from the pulpits today?

Would Paul get kicked out of Pentecost teaching this to the pastors at Gen. Conference?

Would Paul come unglued if he was alive today and witnessed this "salvation tax" imposed on the saints and the world(as a stumblingblock before them)?

Let the reader be the judge.

If you guys think I am rough and unkind, just wait until the Lord of Lords confronts them at the end of their lives and walks them through all of the damage they did to the souls of the lost!

[Sean]

Jason, I know that you are not happy about my disposition and rhetoric, but the HOLY GHOST wants me to do this!

The Lord clearly wants me to confront these men as He see's fit.

The soft approach is not working. The Lord may start with a still, small voice, but He will use THUNDER if the SSV isnt being heard.

The Lord is NEVER politically correct...we are either truth teachers or heretics. There is no in between. We must be honest with the Lord and ourselves to be saved. No teacher will "sneak" into heaven teaching a lie....Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life. (notice...a lie is singular as in one lie)

[Sean]

Michael, I am a "bump on a log" at Christmas and Easter(FYI)....Im in your camp.

[good samaritan]

I have already been through this on another thread with Bro. Jason and I have revised my teaching on the issue although I still faithfully tithe. I believe we should show how they were commanded under the law to tithe of their increase of the land which was their lively hood. They were also commanded that every first born of man and beast were the Lord's and both these teachings preceded the law, but was not commanded until the law.

That being said Wouldn't it be a good place to start with your giving the first ten percent. It shows that you honor God and give Him thanks, and it also demonstrates trust that He is your provider. I don't begin to say that it is commanded under the New Testament because it isn't. I can teach generous giving throughout the New Testament without mentioning tithing.

I am concerned for those who are financially blessed but don't give minimum of ten percent. According to New Testament teaching where much is given much is required. If the Lord has blessed you abundantly than you should bless abundantly. Even the poor can give something and in the end God will judge whether or not we were led by His Spirit.

Tithing is a good example in the Bible that may be more important than what many here know. Although for lack of explicitness on it in the New Testament I will be careful how I teach it. I hope all of the opposition are motivated by biblical accuracy and not greed or animosity against the ministry that God has called.

I am not under the law but am led of the Spirit which I feel keeps the heart of the law only with a different perception. The law tells me not to kill but the Holy Ghost tells me to love which would keep me from murder and even speaking a word against. The law told me to tithe because it was God's way of supporting the poor and the old testament ministry, but the Holy Ghost tells me that I must support the ministry of the church today and be giver to those in need.(I feel like if anyone does that it will come out more than ten percent, but for sake of biblical correctness I won't say anyone must pay a ten percent minimum.) You can think about that and do what God's Spirit leads you to.

P.S. the key to being financially blessed is good stewardship and God. It takes both.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I have already been through this on another thread with Bro. Jason and I have revised my teaching on the issue although I still faithfully tithe. I believe we should show how they were commanded under the law to tithe of their increase of the land which was their lively hood. They were also commanded that every first born of man and beast were the Lord's and both these teachings preceded the law, but was not commanded until the law.

That being said Wouldn't it be a good place to start with your giving the first ten percent. It shows that you honor God and give Him thanks, and it also demonstrates trust that He is your provider. I don't begin to say that it is commanded under the New Testament because it isn't. I can teach generous giving throughout the New Testament without mentioning tithing.

I am concerned for those who are financially blessed but don't give minimum of ten percent. According to New Testament teaching where much is given much is required. If the Lord has blessed you abundantly than you should bless abundantly. Even the poor can give something and in the end God will judge whether or not we were led by His Spirit.

Tithing is a good example in the Bible that may be more important than what many here know. Although for lack of explicitness on it in the New Testament I will be careful how I teach it. I hope all of the opposition are motivated by biblical accuracy and not greed or animosity against the ministry that God has called.

I am not under the law but am led of the Spirit which I feel keeps the heart of the law only with a different perception. The law tells me not to kill but the Holy Ghost tells me to love which would keep me from murder and even speaking a word against. The law told me to tithe because it was God's way of supporting the poor and the old testament ministry, but the Holy Ghost tells me that I must support the ministry of the church today and be giver to those in need.(I feel like if anyone does that it will come out more than ten percent, but for sake of biblical correctness I won't say anyone must pay a ten percent minimum.) You can think about that and do what God's Spirit leads you to.

P.S. the key to being financially blessed is good stewardship and God. It takes both.

Brother, you have a handle on giving here, however, the tithe rhetoric should NEVER be mentioned during offering time. It always ends up as a threatening doctrine(you give them an inch, they will take a mile). Why do we even need to "suggest" to givers what they should try to give. If the believers and the elders are walking in the Spirit, you have nothing financially to worry about. The Lord will provide miraculously for ALL needs, nothing lacking.(just like he does for us as individuals). The saints need to get their head out of the Law and be taught how to walk in the Spirit. I have NEVER in 35 years heard a minister teach a congregation HOW to walk in the Spirit(or the definition of it)!!!...they are just told to do it.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Sean

Brother, you have a handle on giving here, however, the tithe rhetoric should NEVER be mentioned during offering time. It always ends up as a threatening doctrine(you give them an inch, they will take a mile). Why do we even need to "suggest" to givers what they should try to give. If the believers and the elders are walking in the Spirit, you have nothing financially to worry about. The Lord will provide miraculously for ALL needs, nothing lacking.(just like he does for us as individuals). The saints need to get their head out of the Law and be taught how to walk in the Spirit. I have NEVER in 35 years heard a minister teach a congregation HOW to walk in the Spirit(or the definition of it)!!!...they are just told to do it.

Your are saying tithe rhetoric. We must teach about tithing in some form because it is Bible. You are correct that it isn't commanded prior to the book of Acts, but does that mean when I teach through the old testament I skip them scriptures. I agree with you when you say tithing is an old testament law that shouldn't be forced upon people or else, but the method of tithing has made a way for many to be saved. We have had several filled with the Holy Ghost in our church the last several weeks and I can say that people that tithe actually helped make that possible and I have already posted my approach to the subject. You may say just let everyone give how they feel, but unless you give someone examples a lot of times people will not know where to start. I am not saying I go around telling people you must pay tithes to go to heaven, but we must serve the Lord in our giving. I don't want to be guilty of not teaching about generous giving with old testament examples when many are just plain greedy. I don't teach the way I do for personal gain. I find my self pouring a lot of my own finances into people who that only not tithe, but they don't even give anything. If people were pulling the terminology out of the air I would say be strong in your belief, but they have built the doctrine of tithing out of the scripture even if you think it is misapplied. The act of tithing you your self say that isn't wrong. You said earlier you just go against those teaching it. I personally don't believe anyone has ever backslid or denied God because of this teaching even if it isn't a new testament teaching. If people turned and walked away from Jesus because they have to give ten percent they will never make it because really God requires 100%.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Your are saying tithe rhetoric. We must teach about tithing in some form because it is Bible. You are correct that it isn't commanded prior to the book of Acts, but does that mean when I teach through the old testament I skip them scriptures. I agree with you when you say tithing is an old testament law that shouldn't be forced upon people or else, but the method of tithing has made a way for many to be saved. We have had several filled with the Holy Ghost in our church the last several weeks and I can say that people that tithe actually helped make that possible and I have already posted my approach to the subject. You may say just let everyone give how they feel, but unless you give someone examples a lot of times people will not know where to start. I am not saying I go around telling people you must pay tithes to go to heaven, but we must serve the Lord in our giving. I don't want to be guilty of not teaching about generous giving with old testament examples when many are just plain greedy. I don't teach the way I do for personal gain. I find my self pouring a lot of my own finances into people who that only not tithe, but they don't even give anything. If people were pulling the terminology out of the air I would say be strong in your belief, but they have built the doctrine of tithing out of the scripture even if you think it is misapplied. The act of tithing you your self say that isn't wrong. You said earlier you just go against those teaching it. I personally don't believe anyone has ever backslid or denied God because of this teaching even if it isn't a new testament teaching. If people turned and walked away from Jesus because they have to give ten percent they will never make it because really God requires 100%.

Brother, please dont be naive here(respectfully). Tithing has caused countless millions over the centuries, even until now, to stumble and fall in their faith...saved or unsaved. It CANNOT be justified by saying many came in recently.(they have just replaced the ones that could not make it because of tithing...it is a large part of the "revolving door" of pentecost)

Did "tithing" bring them in, or just money being given in general?

Brother, the world thinks that folks that tithe are "nuts". And in a way, they are nuts.

I know, because I did it for several years in the beginning stages of my faith and folks all around said I was nuts....Looking back, I was...LOL

The world knew that I obeyed man blindly, that tithing was NOT biblical for N.T. believers and I just stuck my fingers in my ears when they tried to warn me it was wrong. I finally started opening my eyes and ears and attempted to see what they were telling me.

Anyone that believes man over the word of God IS nuts....Been there, done that bro.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Sean

Brother, please dont be naive here(respectfully). Tithing has caused countless millions over the centuries, even until now, to stumble and fall in their faith...saved or unsaved. It CANNOT be justified by saying many came in recently.(they have just replaced the ones that could not make it because of tithing...it is a large part of the "revolving door" of pentecost)

Did "tithing" bring them in, or just money being given in general?

Brother, the world thinks that folks that tithe are "nuts". And in a way, they are nuts.

I know, because I did it for several years in the beginning stages of my faith and folks all around said I was nuts....Looking back, I was...LOL

The world knew that I obeyed man blindly, that tithing was NOT biblical for N.T. believers and I just stuck my fingers in my ears when they tried to warn me it was wrong. I finally started opening my eyes and ears and attempted to see what they were telling me.

Anyone that believes man over the word of God IS nuts....Been there, done that bro.

I am glad you are so enlightened.

[Sean]

As a matter of fact guys. Open giving is not the pattern of N.T. saints. If we even give in front of anyone else there is no reward.....all giving must be done in SECRET, to be recieve an open reward....

Matt:6 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.



So much for our "marching" to the altar to give in front of one another every week!

No wonder the saints arent seeing their blessings openly!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sean

As a matter of fact guys. Open giving is not the pattern of N.T. saints. If we even give in front of anyone else there is no reward.....all giving must be done in SECRET, to be recieve an open reward....

Matt:6 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.



So much for our "marching" to the altar to give in front of one another every week!

No wonder the saints arent seeing their blessings openly!

I think you are missing the point

Mat 6:1 "Be careful not to display your righteousness merely to be seen by people. Otherwise you have no reward with your Father in heaven.
Mat 6:2 Thus whenever you do charitable giving, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in synagogues and on streets so that people will praise them. I tell you the truth, they have their reward.
Mat 6:3 But when you do your giving, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
Mat 6:4 so that your gift may be in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you.

Jesus is not saying you have to sneak around and covertly give an offering to your local church so nobody knows.

He was talking about charitable giving and announcing it to everyone.."Look at me! I am giving 10000 dollars to help feed poor orphans. Aren't I righteous?"