Original Sin

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

ah ok well you likely have a personal doctrine; however, there is an official doctrine of OS--namely that we are all sinners because Adam sinned--which the "Developed World" has operated on since the 2nd (spurious) Council of Nicea. Now, whether we are all sinners because Adam sinned, or we are all sinners because we sin after Adam is truly irrelevant to the doctrine, which insists upon the former as a starting point for our religion.

"The question then becomes, when were we made sinners? I believe
we were made (became) sinners when we sinned, because of the Law.

Next question: when were we made righteous? I believe we were made
righteous when we received the free gift because of the sacrifice."

The doctrine of OS warps the former, and ignores the latter; and it shows up in a thousand subtle ways in our culture. As i said earlier, the doctrine might be seen as just a convenient way for pastors to explain something that is demonstrably pointless to inquirers--who after all, have all sinned at that point--but it goes deeper than this. Really, nobody cares, or is edified about, the hair splitting--practically speaking, you are a sinner because you sinned; and you sinned because you have, or had, a sin nature. Sin comes naturally to us, because Adam sinned, and we as humans naturally copy our parents. As i'm sure you know, the phrase "Original Sin" is not in the Bible.

The issue is important when we realize how Paul talked about it in practical terms. After having noted Adam made us sinners in Romans 5, (I agree, it doesn't matter if we were sinners before birth or upon committing sins. Good point!) the real issue is what we see in Romans 7. Even after we are saved, sin resides in our flesh. And it is "activated" whenever we coerce ourselves to do good.

I really believe too many believers treat the New Testament like the Old where will-power was the only recourse for doing good. Whenever ANY law is given where we make ourselves obey rules, sin will rise up and ruin it. Since Paul said the flesh is what is utilized whenever a person tries to serve God through law-keeping, only to see one fail, he discovered sin resides IN the flesh. And he called it a LAW - unlike a moral code sort of law, and more like a principle where we will do evil any time we, in our own power, try to make ourselves do good. Romans 7:21.

Rom 7:21 KJV I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

So, the key to victory was to stop relying upon fleshly will power to obey God and stop trying to live a rule-book Christianity. The New Testament did not mean that we make ourselves do good works when it said the ones who love God will keep His commandments. It means the natural result of loving God will be keeping his commandments, because LOVE is the key where things go beyond rule keeping. If someone loves God they just WILL keep His commandments. It's like God foretelling that the presence of His Spirit in us will cause us to walk in his statutes.

Eze 36:27 KJV And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

That's a far cry from making oneself keep them.

Romans 6:13 is our part to see God cause us to do well.

And Galatians 5 says that if we walk after the Spirit, that is relying upon Him for empowerment to do good, we will find that the results are lifestyles that the law cannot condemn! In other words, what the Law could not get us to do because it was weak due to our flesh that housed sin, God did in us through Christ and the cross in getting His Spirit in us to cause us to do good. And those who walk after the Spirit in this manner live lives the Law cannot condemn even though the people doing good never restored to the law to learn what they need to make themselves do.

So, original sin in THAT sense informs us that sin still resides in our flesh and will work unless we learn to live a new manner of life by walking after the Spirit instead of twisting Christianity into a rule-book lifestyle that may as well be law-keeping under Moses.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The issue is important when we realize how Paul talked about it in practical terms. After having noted Adam made us sinners in Romans 5, (I agree, it doesn't matter if we were sinners before birth or upon committing sins. Good point!) the real issue is what we see in Romans 7. Even after we are saved, sin resides in our flesh. And it is "activated" whenever we coerce ourselves to do good.

I really believe too many believers treat the New Testament like the Old where will-power was the only recourse for doing good. Whenever ANY law is given where we make ourselves obey rules, sin will rise up and ruin it. Since Paul said the flesh is what is utilized whenever a person tries to serve God through law-keeping, only to see one fail, he discovered sin resides IN the flesh. And he called it a LAW - unlike a moral code sort of law, and more like a principle where we will do evil any time we, in our own power, try to make ourselves do good. Romans 7:21.

Rom 7:21 KJV I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

So, the key to victory was to stop relying upon fleshly will power to obey God and stop trying to live a rule-book Christianity. The New Testament did not mean that we make ourselves do good works when it said the ones who love God will keep His commandments. It means the natural result of loving God will be keeping his commandments, because LOVE is the key where things go beyond rule keeping. If someone loves God they just WILL keep His commandments. It's like God foretelling that the presence of His Spirit in us will cause us to walk in his statutes.

Eze 36:27 KJV And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

That's a far cry from making oneself keep them.

Romans 6:13 is our part to see God cause us to do well.

And Galatians 5 says that if we walk after the Spirit, that is relying upon Him for empowerment to do good, we will find that the results are lifestyles that the law cannot condemn! In other words, what the Law could not get us to do because it was weak due to our flesh that housed sin, God did in us through Christ and the cross in getting His Spirit in us to cause us to do good. And those who walk after the Spirit in this manner live lives the Law cannot condemn even though the people doing good never restored to the law to learn what they need to make themselves do.

So, original sin in THAT sense informs us that sin still resides in our flesh and will work unless we learn to live a new manner of life by walking after the Spirit instead of twisting Christianity into a rule-book lifestyle that may as well be law-keeping under Moses.

Very good, Beloved.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by mfblume

So, original sin in THAT sense informs us that sin still resides in our flesh and will work unless we learn to live a new manner of life by walking after the Spirit instead of twisting Christianity into a rule-book lifestyle that may as well be law-keeping under Moses.

Amen to all of it. Excellent Bro.!

[Aquila]

When Adam sinned, several things occurred.

1.) Adam's dominion over the earth was compromised, for whosoever you serve is your master. Adam surrendered his god ordained authority and dominion over the earth to Satan. This has allowed demonic influences access to tempt and afflict mankind.

2.) Adam was denied access to the tree of life, the source of eternal life, and by virtue of this denial, all of mankind has become subject to aging, sickness, and death. This caused a fundamental change in our biology leaving us subject to various hormonal and genetic anomalies. Many of these things bring an inherent proclivity towards sin, or what is known as the "sin nature". It resides in our flesh, conditions our minds, and grieves our spirits.

3.) In Adam, the entire human race was cut off from God. Now, all of mankind begins life on a trajectory that will lead them straight to Hell if they do not stop and change direction (repent).

4.) Adam's sin brought a curse upon all creation, causing the entire creation to become subject to death and entropy.

5.) All of these things considered, Adam's sin left the entire human race in desperate need of a Savior.

Adam's sin changed everything.

[Aquila]

Man is a tripart being, a trichotomy - body, soul, and spirit.

1.) The body (Grk. Soma) is the physical part of man. It is largely governed by biological processes rooted in it's genetic make up. It is subject to hormonal imbalances, aging, sickness, and death. Prior to the fall, Adam's body wasn't subject to any of these things. However, now that our bodies are subject to these things, our bodies are in desperate need of regeneration. This will be experienced in the resurrection.

2.) The soul (Grk. "psuche/psyche") is the self-conscious reality in man. It is the "mind". The seat of one's reason, intellect, will, and emotions. It experiences the world around it through the five senses of the body. Therefore, the mind is subject to being conditioned by what it experiences through the body. Pleasure, pain, tragedy, abuse, shame, and guilt (results of the fall) all serve to condition the soul and how it processes it's own identity in relation to the reality around it. The soul is also in desperate need of renewal. This comes through prayer, meditation, fasting, and the study of Scripture. These things are a reconditioning of the mind (soul). The goal is "the mind of Christ". To believe, think, and therefore live as Jesus. One day Heaven's glories in the New Heavens and the New Earth will serve to completely recondition the mind and allow this reality to flourish unhindered, thereby regenerating the soul.

3.) The spirit (Grk. pneuma) is called the "breath of life". It is the living essence within the core of man's being. It is here that man's higher consciousness resides. This is the "inner man" and is the seat of intuition, conscience, spiritual awareness. It is considered to be dying or completely dead and un-functional in those who live merely in their flesh or intellect. It is desperate need of regeneration.

This is the fallen and broken condition of man.

Salvation is designed to address each aspect of man's being.

When one receives the Holy Spirit the very Spirit of God comes to reside in the spirit of man. There is a spiritual joining or union that causes the Holy Spirit and the human spirit to become one spirit. Thus, the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit isn't in that the Holy Spirit now dwells in man as man being a vehicle, but rather now the Holy Spirit resides in, permeates, is united with man's spirit. This brings a sinless perfection into man's spirit. In this, we become living extensions of Him, branches of the true vine. This allows the power and life of the Holy Spirit to flow through the dormant or dead spirit of man, bringing with it life, power, activation of the faculties of intuition, conscience, and spiritual awareness. This process is known theologically as Regeneration.

Once man's intuition, conscience, and spiritual awareness is brought to life the inner man (spirit) is now alive and active. This brings conviction to draw nearer to the source of this new life, God. This is done through prayer, meditation, fasting, and the study of Scripture. This renews the mind (soul) and begins the process of sanctification, which is the process whereby we are conformed into the image and likeness of Jesus. This is a lifelong process whereby the soul's identity is constantly challenged. Until this point, the soul has identified itself in accordance to pleasure, pain, tragedy, abuse, shame, and guilt. Now the soul must identify itself in Christ alone, in accordance to the Word of God. This is a constant struggle and continues throughout one's life until death and resurrection.

With man's spirit having been regenerated and man's soul being conformed into the image of Christ the last part of man to be changed is the body. Throughout life on earth the body will remain un-regenerated. It's hormonal processes, imbalances, and genetic anomalies and proclivities, will continue as the body ages, succumbs to sickness, and eventually dies. Thus one must surrender to the promptings of the spirit and take authority over the body, mortifying the deeds and desires of the flesh. The body will experience it's regeneration when it is raised in glorified perfection at the resurrection. Then all sinful impulses as it relates to our biological nature will vanquished. Until then, the inner man and the flesh struggle between spiritual impulse and carnal physical impulse on the battlefield of the mind (the soul).

All of this is the result and remedy as it relates to Adam's sin and mankind's condition.

[shazeep]

amen to all that, phnxman included. Fast-forward to the 2nd Council of Nicea--the 1st having been dissolved in uproar--when the strong men in the pre-RCC forced the doctrine of Original Sin upon the church, and outlawed owning a Bible shortly thereafter. This sundered the Christian church, the remnant going East and South, and what are now Western Christians, now bereft of Scripture, instigating the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the finger-pointing--and i'm pretty sure the codependence--that endures to this day in our culture, and is practically impossible to find anywhere else; and is also practically impossible to discuss with a death-centered Western Christian, of which i am one.

I'm slowly developing the theory--apparently, as i didn't ask for any of this, it just happened--that Scripture was physically unavailable for those 1000 years or so, and, the doctrine having done its work, Scripture is now--more or less--spiritually unavailable to us, at least without a big change of mind. We say that we are free from sin, but sin, remitting sin, death, who died, whose fault is it, and what "their" shortcomings are--whoever "they" may be, seems to be our central focus.

Witness threads extant here, "versus" threads, or the news, or the fantasy land we raise our kids in, or how we treat our pets--these last two would be compensating methods--add "tipping" to that...it's early, but i could go on for days.

Now of course i speak generally here, several reject or overcome this, a few escape. I haven't yet, i guess

[shazeep]

amen!

[Godsdrummer]

Mike Amen and Amen

[shazeep]

hmm, then why pray "on earth as it is in heaven," again? Ty

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

hmm, then why pray "on earth as it is in heaven," again? Ty

bingo!!!!