McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamation

[Godsdrummer]

I really don't have a dog in this discussion, other than to say that this would not have been a issue had the church, (this church or any church) had in place the true biblical ministry of the church.

Search the scripture, there is not one place you can find and example of the local assembly being lead, overseen, or ruled by a pastor. They ordained elders in every assembly Acts 14:23. Scriptures do not teach a singular man over the local congregation.
Even the very word pastor can only be found in one verse in the NT. And when read properly this passage describes gifts of ministry given to the local assembly to equip the saints to minister to others and to edify the local assembly.
If one wants to put a stop of these blatant uses of power in the church, than organize the local assembly according to true scripture and not the traditions we have been handed down from RC.

[RJR]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

I really don't have a dog in this discussion, other than to say that this would not have been a issue had the church, (this church or any church) had in place the true biblical ministry of the church.

Search the scripture, there is not one place you can find and example of the local assembly being lead, overseen, or ruled by a pastor. They ordained elders in every assembly Acts 14:23. Scriptures do not teach a singular man over the local congregation.
Even the very word pastor can only be found in one verse in the NT. And when read properly this passage describes gifts of ministry given to the local assembly to equip the saints to minister to others and to edify the local assembly.
If one wants to put a stop of these blatant uses of power in the church, than organize the local assembly according to true scripture and not the traditions we have been handed down from RC.

Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Rev 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;

Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by RJR

Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Rev 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;

Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Please demonstrate from scripture that "the angel of" ABC church in Revelation is "the pastor". Thank you.

[Holy Ghost HH]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Please demonstrate from scripture that "the angel of" ABC church in Revelation is "the pastor". Thank you.

Well maybe if you where in the pews at his/her church it would be demonstrated with scripture. Then again you could not come against the teaching because you must obey them that hath the rule over you. Hahahaha

[RJR]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Please demonstrate from scripture that "the angel of" ABC church in Revelation is "the pastor". Thank you.

Better yet, please demonstrate it is not.

[Esaias]

Good grief, here we go again...lol

[good samaritan]

I think we are splitting hairs on some of this church government stuff. Churches should have strong men in the church who are a able to pull the reigns if any one person gets out of his God given jurisdiction. If a church is full of yes men who let the pastor do anything he wants to, then that is indictment against the people of that church.

I have attended a few different churches and have seen some abuse, but I have learned that we all answer to God individually. I have never had much issue submitting to church leadership, but there has been several times I had to say no. When the Bible talks about submission it always must stay within context with pleasing God and taking care of the responsibilities that God has given you personally.

What I am getting at is that I don't see a problem with churches having a singular pastor and matter of fact I think I see enough scripture to qualify it. The thing is that church people must understand that each of them have a individual responsibility to obey God for their self. We need elders in the church who are full of the Holy Ghost and with wisdom working with the pastor, and not below him.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I think we are splitting hairs on some of this church government stuff. Churches should have strong men in the church who are a able to pull the reigns if any one person gets out of his God given jurisdiction. If a church is full of yes men who let the pastor do anything he wants to, then that is indictment against the people of that church.

I have attended a few different churches and have seen some abuse, but I have learned that we all answer to God individually. I have never had much issue submitting to church leadership, but there has been several times I had to say no. When the Bible talks about submission it always must stay within context with pleasing God and taking care of the responsibilities that God has given you personally.

What I am getting at is that I don't see a problem with churches having a singular pastor and matter of fact I think I see enough scripture to qualify it. The thing is that church people must understand that each of them have a individual responsibility to obey God for their self. We need elders in the church who are full of the Holy Ghost and with wisdom working with the pastor, and not below him.

Spoken like a true pastor driven saint. And just where in scripture do you see enough to qualify a singular pastor?
What I see more in churches are saints that are more inclined to be obedient to a man than obedient to God.
Nowhere in scripture can it be found submit to the pastor to be saved, rather "study to show yourself approve" and "Seek out your own salvation with fear and trembling".
And if one wants to quote Hebrews 13:17, the word "obey" in that verse means "by persuasion" not out and out obedience just because he says he is the man of God!
And further more Jesus own words tell us that "we are not to be Lords".
Matt 20.
Some how we also seem to miss the Lords words when he tells us "not to be called teachers, fathers, or masters. Because you have one teacher, one father, and one master, Christ Jesus. Matt 23.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Spoken like a true pastor driven saint. And just where in scripture do you see enough to qualify a singular pastor?
What I see more in churches are saints that are more inclined to be obedient to a man than obedient to God.
Nowhere in scripture can it be found submit to the pastor to be saved, rather "study to show yourself approve" and "Seek out your own salvation with fear and trembling".
And if one wants to quote Hebrews 13:17, the word "obey" in that verse means "by persuasion" not out and out obedience just because he says he is the man of God!
And further more Jesus own words tell us that "we are not to be Lords".
Matt 20.
Some how we also seem to miss the Lords words when he tells us "not to be called teachers, fathers, or masters. Because you have one teacher, one father, and one master, Christ Jesus. Matt 23.

Plural leadership was always present in the church. We see a group of disciples in the early NT church making decisions, praying over who was to take positions in the assembly, etc. In Paul's letters to the churches, he always begins his address in the plural form to the saints and brethren, bishops and deacons.

example: Phil 1:1 "Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons."

Plural leadership.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Spoken like a true pastor driven saint. And just where in scripture do you see enough to qualify a singular pastor?
What I see more in churches are saints that are more inclined to be obedient to a man than obedient to God.
Nowhere in scripture can it be found submit to the pastor to be saved, rather "study to show yourself approve" and "Seek out your own salvation with fear and trembling".
And if one wants to quote Hebrews 13:17, the word "obey" in that verse means "by persuasion" not out and out obedience just because he says he is the man of God!
And further more Jesus own words tell us that "we are not to be Lords".
Matt 20.
Some how we also seem to miss the Lords words when he tells us "not to be called teachers, fathers, or masters. Because you have one teacher, one father, and one master, Christ Jesus. Matt 23.

I consider Paul, Timothy, Titus and others pastors in their day.There had to be a singularity of church leadership as the church began, because there was few when it began. Among the apostles I find in scripture that Peter seemed to many times be the speaker of the house. I agree that as a church grows numerically and materially that there needs to be a plurality of leaders in accordance. BTW, I now pastor a small, but growing congregation. I teach people not so I can keep them underneath me, but so I can disciple and send others into the harvest. I am trying to win people to Jesus, not to myself. The broadbrushed remarks against leadership are doing nothing but giving ammunition to turn a deaf ear to people with the gospel message of Jesus Christ. IMO.

15-- I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,) 16-- That ye submit yourselves unto such, and to every one that helpeth with us, and laboureth.

I don't believe and never have believed that you submit to a pastor in order to glorify a man. Instead, it is to support the ministry of Christ. By submitting to a church leader or leaders you aid in the work of the Lord in your life and the lives of others. I have been pastor driven. Let me explain that though, There are times in my life when I didn't not have the vision, but I aided in the vision of another. God was the center and He still is. We must be unified and that only comes through submission firstly to God and secondly to God called men.