Once Saved Always Saved

KeptByTheWord · #1 11-03-2015, 09:09 AM

Our single widowed neighbor, who is a staunch Baptist, had a discussion with us where she said she believes in once saved always saved. We had a discussion about how we view it. She did not really have any scripture to back up her position, but said she was going home to study it, and present it to us at a later time.

What is the best way to refute this doctrine?

We took her to Revelation where Jesus was speaking to the churches, and it was quite obvious that they were believers, and yet he was rebuking them strongly, and if they didn't repent, he would "spue them out of his mouth". Her response to this was that they were never believers in the first place for this to happen. This is the card they play to get out of the concept of not being once saved always saved.

Any scriptures, pointers or ideas/concepts in which it can be discussed with her that we can't just live recklessly after our faith in Jesus, and still expect to be saved? She is not doing that of course - she loves the Lord dearly, and I believe the Lord has led her to come into our path to lead her to more truth. I just want to handle this carefully. She has been coming to our home group meetings, and she has expressed how wonderful it is to gather like this, and feel the sweet spirit of the Lord in our meetings. We believe the Lord wants to lead her on to greater truth.

mfblume · #2 11-03-2015, 09:26 AM

God wills that one be lost or perish. That shuts the whole thing down right there. If He wills none perish, then there is no such thing as Him willing only certain ones to be saved. OSAS believes God chooses not to save everyone, but only some ,and he chooses the rest to go to hell. They hate putting it that way, but that's what OSAS essentially is saying.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

shazeep · #3 11-03-2015, 09:56 AM

amen, and what God wills gets accomplished. But i would counsel against trying to "prove" either side of this argument, and instead see that there is support for both sides, and coming to a better understanding of a mystery should be paramount.

KeptByTheWord · #4 11-03-2015, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

God wills that one be lost or perish. That shuts the whole thing down right there. If He wills none perish, then there is no such thing as Him willing only certain ones to be saved. OSAS believes God chooses not to save everyone, but only some ,and he chooses the rest to go to hell. They hate putting it that way, but that's what OSAS essentially is saying.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Ok thanks, Bro. MF. So, just to recap - essentially the Calvinist idea behind OSAS is that God determines who will be saved or lost, and if you are saved, you will be saved regardless of how you live, because God has determined you will be saved or go to hell.

But then the verse in Peter refutes that, because it says that God wills that none should perish, but all come to repentance.

This scripture speaks pretty solidly that one can lose their salvation, I think.

Heb. 10:26 "For if we sin wilfuly after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

KeptByTheWord · #5 11-03-2015, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazeep

amen, and what God wills gets accomplished. But i would counsel against trying to "prove" either side of this argument, and instead see that there is support for both sides, and coming to a better understanding of a mystery should be paramount.

Right, that is exactly what I want to avoid. I just want to show her the other side of the argument, which I don't think she has ever considered.

KeptByTheWord · #6 11-03-2015, 10:02 AM

In the case of Esau, Pharaoh, and Judas... it does seem that God used their existence to bring about a greater good... so... was it God's will for those three to come to repentance, or was their existence and evil works allowed without repentance, to bring about His greater purpose?

Esaias · #7 11-03-2015, 10:04 AM

Hebrews 6:4-8 utterly refutes OSAS.

Romans 11:20-21 does likewise.

Esaias · #8 11-03-2015, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Ok thanks, Bro. MF. So, just to recap - essentially the Calvinist idea behind OSAS is that God determines who will be saved or lost, and if you are saved, you will be saved regardless of how you live, because God has determined you will be saved or go to hell.

But then the verse in Peter refutes that, because it says that God wills that none should perish, but all come to repentance.

This scripture speaks pretty solidly that one can lose their salvation, I think.

Heb. 10:26 "For if we sin wilfuly after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

Not all Baptists who believe OSAS are Calvinists. Many just simply believe once you get saved you cannot afterwards be lost regardless of what you do. Calvinists would reject such a notion.

Heb 10:26 is speaking about under the Mosaic economy presumptuous sin had no offering to take care of it. And there is no additional offering for us either if we sin presumptuously. But if we press it to mean once saved and you voluntarily sin you face judgment, then we are in effect saying nobody will be saved, for who can say they NEVER ONCE SINNED after becoming a Christian?

Esther · #9 11-03-2015, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

God wills that one be lost or perish. That shuts the whole thing down right there. If He wills none perish, then there is no such thing as Him willing only certain ones to be saved. OSAS believes God chooses not to save everyone, but only some ,and he chooses the rest to go to hell. They hate putting it that way, but that's what OSAS essentially is saying.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

That is not what OSAS believe but those that believe in predestation.

I have most of mine and my husbands family are Baptist
And they are adament about it.

God told Moses He would blot out the names He would blot out. (Paraphrased)

This tells me you can't be OSAS.

kclee4jc · #10 11-03-2015, 10:32 AM

I personally would not chose to focus on her OSAS doctrine but instead to give her a more clear understanding of the New Birth experience. If she can get a revelation of Acts 2:38 then I would say her OSAS persuasion will not be much of an issue.

The Baptists borrow OSAS (or the perseverance of the saints) from Calvinism, while rejecting the other 4 points. If she becomes ardent in defending the OSAS doctrine you might show her its roots. Then, the scriptures against it are irrefutable. One excellent verse is I Cor. 6:9.