Elephant in the room - accusation of judging

[shazeep]

Again, aside from the point., The point is WHAT YOU THINK OF THIS and how you make your conclusions based on this passage. I know it's hard, since you have a vendetta against me. But please try to focus. What are YOUR thoughts apart from any reference to me or mine?

my thoughts are contained in the quotes, of course. My thought are that you have to change your mind in order for Scripture to make sense to you, and if you are spouting what most every other american is spouting about muslims, you obviously have not changed your mind.

[shazeep]

Can't stay away from me, can you>


it is you who espouses a lie, Mike, don't take it personally. If you can't accept

ok, if you want to get technical, Jesus was not the name that Christ went by anyway, so you're doomed.

in the sense meant, then my apologies, i'll work on that, and please change "you're" to "we're."

[shazeep]

See? Dodge dodge dodge. You cannto deal with a passage in itself.


i am not calling you into my beliefs, ok? You do not have to believe like i do. If that seems like a dodge to you, then perhaps you do not understand the point being made there, or perhaps it was not meant for you, but those are my thoughts on the matter, which i doubt would make much sense to you, tbh, so you can either extend yourself out to my comment, and seek to understand what i meant rather than what i say, and ask pointed questions about my reply that might allow for more understanding, or you can build a higher wall and say i'm dodging.

If it is you who is lost, it is you who must seek your own salvation. If your salvation is incumbent upon everyone else to be lost who does not accept your understanding, i am not interested in even changing that, ok? I am not the one wringing my hands over the Muslim Invasion, or saying that everyone else is lost.

I am just trying to connect the dots here, in a way that you have to accept is not going to be comfortable for you, similar to what i have been doing; ruining your legal Pauline quotes by pointing out Love in them, pointing out all the contortions at "GS," etc. Turning "Love your neighbor is 9/10ths of the Law" back into a Christian command.

If these don't agree with your doctrine, the choice is up to you what you keep and what you discard, and so far it has been obvious. where did you even end up @ the GS salvation, anyway? Who knows. Are Catholics saved now, if they obey god? No longer clear. Is "love your neighbor" now a command, or is it still attempting to follow the Law? Anyone's guess. And you say i am not being clear?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

See? Dodge dodge dodge. You cannto deal with a passage in itself.


i am not calling you into my beliefs, ok? You do not have to believe like i do. If that seems like a dodge to you, then perhaps you do not understand the point being made there, or perhaps it was not meant for you, but those are my thoughts on the matter, which i doubt would make much sense to you, tbh, so you can either extend yourself out to my comment, and seek to understand what i meant rather than what i say, and ask pointed questions about my reply that might allow for more understanding, or you can build a higher wall and say i'm dodging.

Always dodging. I asked you what these passages mean in your thinking and how that affects however way you treat the question of who is lost and who isn't. The dodging part is you do not answer. Just answer.

If it is you who is lost, it is you who must seek your own salvation. If your salvation is incumbent upon everyone else to be lost who does not accept your understanding, i am not interested in even changing that, ok? I am not the one wringing my hands over the Muslim Invasion, or saying that everyone else is lost.

I don't care what if you want to change anything. Just asking how you make sense of these scriptures and what do they make you conclude. Why can't you answer without always turning it on me and throwing more dirt on me every time? The dirt means nothing to me. Just wondering why you cannot answer.

I am just trying to connect the dots here, in a way that you have to accept is not going to be comfortable for you, similar to what i have been doing;

In other words, you're only out to demean me. I get it. That explains why you won't answer my questions without demeaning me. Weird, but I get it.

ruining your legal Pauline quotes by pointing out Love in them, pointing out all the contortions at "GS," etc. Turning "Love your neighbor is 9/10ths of the Law" back into a Christian command.

There's nothing legal about Paul's quotes. No contortions about the GS, except in your presumptuous mind. Love your neighbour still doesn't mean we're saved by works, though you desperately wish it did.

If these don't agree with your doctrine,

I could care less what you believe that disagrees with my doctrine. I just don;'t know what you ebleive.lol

I am the choice is up to you what you keep and what you discard, and so far it has been obvious.

WHy always make this about me? I am trying to see what you think of these verses and why you reason with them the way you do.

where did you even end up @ the GS salvation, anyway?

Again, you keep saying GS, not me. It has nothig to do with salvation. Now, when are you going to answer?

Who knows. Are Catholics saved now, if they obey god? No longer clear. Is "love your neighbor" now a command, or is it still attempting to follow the Law? Anyone's guess. And you say i am not being clear?

You are not being clear. RIght. You're writing is horrendously lacking of thought in your mind not coming out.

[shazeep]

Ah, the old God deceives people with His word, trick.

ok well you say "trick," but "seeing you will not see" is in there for a reason. We have many examples of this in Scripture, so the concept exists even if it does not apply to you. The trick to me is how church becomes your mortgaged building, and God is Love is turned into "they are all lost." What a hideous concept.

[shazeep]

Again, I know you got a weird way of thinking of the word. But tell me what this verse does to your thoughts and how it forms your conclusions about who is saved and lost. And why.


i do not form conclusions about who is saved or lost, Mike. Ever. That is extremely presumptuous, and i think we have amply demonstrated that your conclusions were tripe. You can't even define saved or lost to universal satisfaction, and i can't either. For every verse you point to that "defines" salvation, i can provide another that gives a different perspective. Doesn't this tell you something?

Obviously yes, it does. it tells you that everyone else is lost, and we will all agree with you if we just focus in on this or that one little verse, and of course accept your interpretation of it. Gee, i wonder how we all became in thrall to the state with our eyes wide open? Prolly just another coincidence.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Again, I know you got a weird way of thinking of the word. But tell me what this verse does to your thoughts and how it forms your conclusions about who is saved and lost. And why.


i do not form conclusions about who is saved or lost, Mike. Ever. That is extremely presumptuous, and i think we have amply demonstrated that your conclusions were tripe. You can't even define saved or lost to universal satisfaction, and i can't either. For every verse you point to that "defines" salvation, i can provide another that gives a different perspective. Doesn't this tell you something?

Obviously yes, it does. it tells you that everyone else is lost, and we will all agree with you if we just focus in on this or that one little verse, and of course accept your interpretation of it. Gee, i wonder how we all became in thrall to the state with our eyes wide open? Prolly just another coincidence.

Paul made conclusions.
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Jesus did
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Peter did.
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Jude did
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Paul made conclusions.
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Jesus did
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Peter did.
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Jude did
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

i think it is wise to reach conclusions for yourself, that being that you need to seek your own salvation, not perpetuate some Pentecostal Inquisition. Or by all means keep doing that if you like, but see that that is what has got you to here.

Yes, sponsoring 100k Muslims would be apparently "hating your life," reckless and foolish; if you are scared for your life. By all means then, keep espousing All Muslims Are Lost, and see what that gets you. I get along with Muslims just fine, guys. I have no daughters, to witness my hypocrisy, and you know what? Your daughters aren't going to come onto a forum and make it obvious, with Scripture, that you don't even believe what you have faith in, in 5-6 different places, you want me to pull them back up?

They are just going to witness that the Muslims among them now seem to be fine, they aren't even out demonstrating against our atrocities, and they are going to absorb "All Muslims are lost, all Catholics are lost, the Pents across the street are lost" from you, whether you even say that out loud or not, because surely you are making your unfounded fears known, wringing your hands about Muslims in the news, etc, and about the time you "prove" to them with Paul how terrible everyone else is, they are going to get interested in Islam, and you are going to be meeting a surprise new inlaw.

You want to lead people to Christ? That's great. Love God and your neighbor. It's 9/10ths of all that law that you are trying to justify your position with, and you aren't doing it, so the insistence on the legal part is just going to ring hollow, even if it is truth. But no, you resist even this statement by Christ, "...is 9/10ths of the law and the prophets," and somehow manage to turn it into a warning against following the law?

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i think it is wise to reach conclusions for yourself, that being that you need to seek your own salvation, not perpetuate some Pentecostal Inquisition. Or by all means keep doing that if you like, but see that that is what has got you to here.

Yes, sponsoring 100k Muslims would be apparently "hating your life," reckless and foolish; if you are scared for your life. By all means then, keep espousing All Muslims Are Lost, and see what that gets you. I get along with Muslims just fine, guys. I have no daughters, to witness my hypocrisy, and you know what? Your daughters aren't going to come onto a forum and make it obvious, with Scripture, that you don't even believe what you have faith in, in 5-6 different places, you want me to pull them back up?

They are just going to witness that the Muslims among them now seem to be fine, they aren't even out demonstrating against our atrocities, and they are going to absorb "All Muslims are lost, all Catholics are lost, the Pents across the street are lost" from you, whether you even say that out loud or not, because surely you are making your unfounded fears known, wringing your hands about Muslims in the news, etc, and about the time you "prove" to them with Paul how terrible everyone else is, they are going to get interested in Islam, and you are going to be meeting a surprise new inlaw.

You want to lead people to Christ? That's great. Love God and your neighbor. It's 9/10ths of all that law that you are trying to justify your position with, and you aren't doing it, so the insistence on the legal part is just going to ring hollow, even if it is truth. But no, you resist even this statement by Christ, "...is 9/10ths of the law and the prophets," and somehow manage to turn it into a warning against following the law?

shaz - I get along with every one just fine. That does not mean that I cannot believe that they are lost.
But, by the same token it does not mean that I cannot see the results of certain belief systems and not make conclusions from those results.
You are doing the same thing to us that you accuse us of doing to others.
You are making a conclusion about us.
Also, can you give me scripture reference for you "9/10's of the law and the prophets"?
Maybe I am just slow this morning, but that isn't ringing a bell with me.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

shaz - I get along with every one just fine. That does not mean that I cannot believe that they are lost.

see that perhaps your eye has been trained into this perception, and contrasting this belief with one who has picked up their cross, and what their eyes see, might suggest a different view. You don't believe they are lost because your child ran to you with some horror story; you believe they are lost because some guys with ties "helped" you to understand the bible.

Originally Posted by aegsm76

But, by the same token it does not mean that I cannot see the results of certain belief systems and not make conclusions from those results.

then see that you see from a point of view, nothing wrong with that, and others have a point of view, too, that is equally valid; until you believe they are lost, of course, that is just a way to invalidate them, and then, with your new eyes, see that one pov has it that your belief system has set the world on fire, and your belief system seems to be in lock-step with mercenaries protecting cheap oil and enforcing a fake dollar on everyone, but you have no personal complaints against local Muslims at all, for the overwhelming part. So by all means, make some conclusions, but see that we reach conclusions based upon self interest, and we fall in with others who accept our conclusions, and screen out anyone who has a different conclusion, right?

Originally Posted by aegsm76

You are doing the same thing to us that you accuse us of doing to others.
You are making a conclusion about us.

well, Judge not, lest you be judged, and the Bible makes this conclusion, not me, and if the shoe doesn't fit don't wear it, etc, but see that when you hold "They are all lost" in your heart, you are going to manifest this as a nation, because it is those who are called by His Name that determines these directions, God pays no attention to "the sea" of people who aren't even trying. If you sow "they are all lost" in your collective mind you are going to reap "they are all lost," however that manifests, so don't be surprised when you get Trump as potus and your daughters marrying Muslims. I agree; i am no good at this. I am a hypocrite, not a pastor. All i can ask is that you forgive me, because i am no better than anyone else, and likely the least qualified to be holding up any mirrors.

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Also, can you give me scripture reference for you "9/10's of the law and the prophets"?
Maybe I am just slow this morning, but that isn't ringing a bell with me.

sorry, that one never searches very well, a corollary verse is below.













yes, i am making some conclusions, but i hope you see that the alternative is to run, and we have lost some great posters since i have been here. Judge not, and you won't be judged, perhaps. You can believe they are lost if you like, we read that most people are, almost everyone, and i can then believe you are lost..or we can change our beliefs, and stop looking for how they differ from us, and start dwelling on how they are the same, and perhaps not so damned to perdition as we believed. and I'm talking about the Pentecostals in that other sect across the street, not Muslims on the other side of the planet, where all our bases are.

I would discuss Catholics some more, but we have already had our wars with them, right? Yet they are still here, stronger than ever, just like Muslims who we have been trying to strong-arm into our belief system for a thousand years, why oh why doesn't God let us help Him? Gee God, if they are lost, and i can prove it with Scripture, then what is the problem? Wadr the problem might be that "9/10ths of the law and the prophets" does not ring any bells--and please take that in the spirit intended--so we have no grasp of the simple things, but we are sure practically everyone else is lost based upon the harder things?

37He said to him, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.ah,ai 38This is the greatest and most importantaj command. 39The second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself.ak,al 40All the Law and the Prophets dependam on these two commands

here it is "all," elsewhere Christ stated it as "9/10ths," but that doesn't search very well, ya. I usually have to search it in google, strangely, and not a Bible engine, and i can't even find it myself today, so there ya go

Do not owe anyone anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.

see that you do not owe anyone salvation; you owe them love. God is not ever going to ask you why you did not pin someone in a corner and ask them if they knew Jesus as their Lord and Saviour; He is going to ask why you did not love them.