Elephant in the room - accusation of judging

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

hey, i'm not the one saying "All Catholics are lost," and pretending to some "our" and "we" that does not seem to exist as you describe it.

Hey, I've been trying to stress it;s not about catholics or muslims. I've been pushing at doctrine so much, your preoccupation toward my single sentence so far back is blinding you from all I've been trying to say is the actual focus.

Ps, post 291 seems to ignore that one might be blind to their inadequacies, and in fact an observation of human nature uncovers that we tend to judge others for the sins that we ourselves commit, which is admittedly psychology, but is backed up in Scripture.

So imo you have made a complete mess of Matt 7, which says...pretty much the opposite of what you are saying. By definition, if you seek to remove a splinter from someone else's eye it is because you have a beam in your own, and other Scriptures verify this, as well as comments from even your own peers. Or who verified that you have no beam in your eye? How does one reach this conclusion by themselves iow?

You ignore blatant context of chapters, so what more can be said?

Go ahead, believe we are saved by works and then say you don't, but then say you do... You're going to twist words me or the bible says anyway.

[shazeep]

Furthermore, Paul stated we are intended to judge people who claim to be in the church.

1 Cor 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

He said those in the church are intended to be judged by believers. Otherwise he would not tell them to cast out the unrepentant fornicator Those outside the church God judges.

yet here you are judging Muslims and Catholics, while i am addressing those in my "church." ok

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Furthermore, Paul stated we are intended to judge people who claim to be in the church.

1 Cor 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

He said those in the church are intended to be judged by believers. Otherwise he would not tell them to cast out the unrepentant fornicator Those outside the church God judges.

yet here you are judging Muslims and Catholics, while i am addressing those in my "church." ok

Catholics claim to be in the church. They claim Christ. And yet I have always maintained this is not about people, but beliefs. And you focused on a statement I made in passing aside from my point, and ironically have ignored every explanation I ever gave. If some parts of what I say are just an obsession, why are others totally brushed away. How can anything I say be trusted, if most of what I say is cast aside as rubbish, and a single sentence I once made is so much your focus? How can you trust that single sentence?

But despite my clarification to point away from people to beliefs, you insist on keeping it about people. Me. Them.

But did you happen read the context of the judgment in the church, to indicate what he meant about judging the world?

[shazeep]

you force me to be pedantic here; either all Catholics are lost or they are not, and i am frankly unaware of your current position on this matter, as it appears that you seem to be. Good day.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

you force me to be pedantic here; either all Catholics are lost or they are not, and i am frankly unaware of your current position on this matter, as it appears that you seem to be. Good day.

Of course. I'm unaware of what I believe.

If I say anything, you reject it anyway if it conflicts with your judgment of me. So why?

And, anyway, I've already detailingly explained why people will be lost if they're lost. And you still say this.

[mfblume]

not answered:

Originally Posted by mfblume

This issue has popped up so many times, I cannot keep number, and is the favourite ploy of the unsaved who know nothing of Scripture. So, I am surprised it pops up here.

Judging.

So many say we JUDGE others, when Jesus said not to do so, whenever someone says "___ is lost."

Here's the favourite verse thereby taken out of context:

Matthew 7:7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

The ACTUAL context is understood with the entirety of the issue in mind:

Matthew 7:7 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

When you read it ALL, it says the judgment you mete will be meted back onto you again. In other words, if you have something in your eye and you tell someone else about something in their eye, you judged that person for your own problem. In fact, you did worse, because you not only have something in your own eye, but you pointed it out to another when that same one was silent with you.

This means you have to have victory over something that you claim another has a problem with. IT DOES NOT MEAN you are not to point out problems in others. Just don't do it if you have the same problem.

It actually gives you allowance to point out a problem so long as you don't have it yourself.

Furthermore, Paul stated we are intended to judge people who claim to be in the church.

1 Cor 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

He said those in the church are intended to be judged by believers. Otherwise he would not tell them to cast out the unrepentant fornicator Those outside the church God judges.

Now, when it comes to saying an entire religion's adherents are lost, some claim that is judging. No it's not. The word of God judged them.

Judging is contriving and creating your own criteria for salvation, and thereby determining who is lost and saved. When the bible laid out the criteria and stated disbelief in it or lack of adherence to it means one is lost, then repeating that statement to those who distinctly deny adherence to the biblical criteria are lost is not judging them, but only repeating what the bible said.

Again, judging is when you create the criteria, not when you cite bible where the criteria is plainly laid out.

Now, what I will say next will not be addressed by those who make this claim that we judge. Watch and see:

If it was still judging, and therefore wrong, for a believer to say a certain religious movement is entirely lost because they patently deny what the bible says is necessary for salvation, then we could never fulfil this command from the Lord.

Exekiel 3:16 And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, 17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. 18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. 20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

When people say we cannot say muslims or hindus or buddhists are lost, because that is judging them, that's like saying we cannot cry out to people as watchmen and warn them of their anger!

Imagine them responding to you and saying, "You're judging me! You said I'm in danger. That's judging me!"

How is that not the case?

[shazeep]

well, after subtracting all of the rhetoric, you have stated both that All Catholics are lost, and that it is not a matter of what sect, but the heart. How is anyone supposed to interpret this? Please take this as a rhetorical question, for consideration, for some future self.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

well, after subtracting all of the rhetoric, you have stated both that All Catholics are lost, and that it is not a matter of what sect, but the heart. How is anyone supposed to interpret this? Please take this as a rhetorical question, for consideration, for some future self.

It's simple. If you followed my explanations. Catholic doctrine is admittedly a concern to you. And though you try to separate its adherents from that doctrine, making catholics somehow different from those who believe catholic dogma you admit is a concern, you put a BUT in there. You said What about those who have no other churches to attend; implying actual non-catholics attending a catholic church. I gave my response. You never responded.

I made a statement that catholic dogma does not teach us to rely solely on the work of the cross for righteousness. I showed where the bible teaches we have to. I showed ho catholic dogma baptizes infants who have no faith, and showed how the bible teaches we must believe when we're baptized. You said something about saying the right words, and I responded with Peter's explanation that it's not saying the name, but it is faith in His name that makes the difference when we say it. The seven sons of Sceva said the name, and devils went no where. It's a matter of faith.

And when I said catholics are lost it was because a catholic is a catholic only because the person believes infants don't need faith for baptism, and a person who believes the very dogmas you said you're concerned about. So, this means it's not about people that you want it to be about. It's actually about DOCTRINE. You cannot accept that. I suspect it is because you simply don't want to think that way. A person is not lost because they classify themselves as catholic. A person is lost because of what it means to be a catholic.... someone who believes in things the bible distinctly speaks against, like the muslim who believes the Koran's words that say JESUS WAS NOT CRUCIFIED.

I gave no rhetoric. I just made the actual point in the difference and you fail to respond to that singular point. I highlighted the actual issue. You won't touch it since it exposes that I am not in the pigeonhole you wish I was in.


Now, try to make it about people again.

[shazeep]

pardon me if i don't waste any space on sympathy, as it is you who plainly stated that all Catholics were lost.
So then are all Catholics still lost in your opinion, or not? Can anyone tell?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

pardon me if i don't waste any space on sympathy, as it is you who plainly stated that all Catholics were lost.
So then are all Catholics still lost in your opinion, or not? Can anyone tell?

You do not even read what I write, do you? lol

Ironic, since you certainly read one sentence months ago, but ignored context.