More on Skirts

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I knew a fourth generation Apostolic Pentecostal. This young man's great-grandfather was an Apostolic Pentecostal back when the movement was just taking off. He was a farmer. He faithful attended church, read his Bible, raised his children in the fear and admonition of the Lord, and... smoked a pipe. My friend's grandfather (second generation Apostolic) smoked a pipe also, but taught his children against it because it was proven that smoking tobacco was bad for one's health. My friend's father (third generation Apostolic) never smoked. And of course, my friend doesn't smoke.

If you do a little research on the Apostolic movement predating 1930's, you'll discover that there was a wide range of opinions about smoking and it wasn't unheard of for Apostolics to smoke.

And their salvation was never questioned.

After it research and science began to prove the dangers of smoking (despite the propaganda and misinformation campaign headed by the tobacco companies) Christian churches began encouraging that people not smoke. As science began to prove the damage smoking causes, many churches chose to label smoking a "sin" ranked up with drinking, carousing, and other unhealthy lifestyles.

Now, does this mean that smoking is a "sin"? I do know that it is one of the most unhealthy habits to have. But just because something is "unhealthy" it doesn't mean it is a "sin". Else being overweight would be "sin". Most Americans eat meals that are too large, this too would be a "sin". Eating foods that are not considered good for you (such as a Big Mac) would be "sin". Drinking soda-pop would be "sin". Drinking various coffees would be "sin"... or having any of these things in excess would be "sin".

I would argue that smoking, being of an unhealthy weight, eating too much, eating unhealthy foods, drinking soda-pop, coffee, etc. can all be considered unhealthy practices. I'd encourage spiritual self-discipline concerning these things and emphasize the blessings of good health. But to just throw the word "sin" around is serious. Sin can land one in Hell. I'm not sure that any of these things will do that.

Special note, it was an almost universal practice throughout the Middle East in Christ's day to chew khat after large meals. It was chewed during after dinner fellowship and helped to clean teeth. The only problem is that khat contains a monoamine alkaloid called cathinone, an amphetamine-like stimulant. While it was very common throughout the Middle East for thousands of years... today it is considered a controlled substance.

Prove Jesus, the apostles, prophets, saints etc chewed khat after meals.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Prove Jesus, the apostles, prophets, saints etc chewed khat after meals.

I didn't say that they did. All I said is that was a wide spread practice. The practice spanned various cultures in that region from Egypt, North Africa and the Arabian Peninsula, to Persia since ancient times.

Besides, what difference would it make if they chewed khat or not?

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I knew a fourth generation Apostolic Pentecostal. This young man's great-grandfather was an Apostolic Pentecostal back when the movement was just taking off. He was a farmer. He faithful attended church, read his Bible, raised his children in the fear and admonition of the Lord, and... smoked a pipe. My friend's grandfather (second generation Apostolic) smoked a pipe also, but taught his children against it because it was proven that smoking tobacco was bad for one's health. My friend's father (third generation Apostolic) never smoked. And of course, my friend doesn't smoke.

If you do a little research on the Apostolic movement predating 1930's, you'll discover that there was a wide range of opinions about smoking and it wasn't unheard of for Apostolics to smoke.

And their salvation was never questioned.

After it research and science began to prove the dangers of smoking (despite the propaganda and misinformation campaign headed by the tobacco companies) Christian churches began encouraging that people not smoke. As science began to prove the damage smoking causes, many churches chose to label smoking a "sin" ranked up with drinking, carousing, and other unhealthy lifestyles.

Now, does this mean that smoking is a "sin"? I do know that it is one of the most unhealthy habits to have. But just because something is "unhealthy" it doesn't mean it is a "sin". Else being overweight would be "sin". Most Americans eat meals that are too large, this too would be a "sin". Eating foods that are not considered good for you (such as a Big Mac) would be "sin". Drinking soda-pop would be "sin". Drinking various coffees would be "sin"... or having any of these things in excess would be "sin".

I would argue that smoking, being of an unhealthy weight, eating too much, eating unhealthy foods, drinking soda-pop, coffee, etc. can all be considered unhealthy practices. I'd encourage spiritual self-discipline concerning these things and emphasize the blessings of good health. But to just throw the word "sin" around is serious. Sin can land one in Hell. I'm not sure that any of these things will do that.

Special note, it was an almost universal practice throughout the Middle East in Christ's day to chew khat after large meals. It was chewed during after dinner fellowship and helped to clean teeth. The only problem is that khat contains a monoamine alkaloid called cathinone, an amphetamine-like stimulant. While it was very common throughout the Middle East for thousands of years... today it is considered a controlled substance.

It is good to know that someone's grandfather smoked a pipe; therefore, it is okay to smoke, chew tobacco or other controlled substances because someone somewhere did so in history. Sin must be something that no one has ever done...

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Pliny

It is good to know that someone's grandfather smoked a pipe; therefore, it is okay to smoke, chew tobacco or other controlled substances because someone somewhere did so in history. Sin must be something that no one has ever done...

I agree with Aquila on this issue. If you're making a logical argument about smoking and say that it is harmful to the body therefore it is sinful, then you must examine all other things that harm the body and cause health issues and use that same argument to label those a sin as well.

Yes.... food can be a HUGE addiction.

I've struggled with food addiction for years.

Don't preach against smoking and make food your god.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

I agree with Aquila on this issue. If you're making a logical argument about smoking and say that it is harmful to the body therefore it is sinful, then you must examine all other things that harm the body and cause health issues and use that same argument to label those a sin as well.

Yes.... food can be a HUGE addiction.

I've struggled with food addiction for years.

Don't preach against smoking and make food your god.

I can teach my children to not smoke, to not eat garbage, to not become obese. Not because of some religious prohibition but because their father and mother are super healthy, and can deadlift some crazy weight.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

I agree with Aquila on this issue. If you're making a logical argument about smoking and say that it is harmful to the body therefore it is sinful, then you must examine all other things that harm the body and cause health issues and use that same argument to label those a sin as well.

Yes.... food can be a HUGE addiction.

I've struggled with food addiction for years.

Don't preach against smoking and make food your god.

The leading cause of premature death in America is diet related heart disease.

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

I agree with Aquila on this issue. If you're making a logical argument about smoking and say that it is harmful to the body therefore it is sinful, then you must examine all other things that harm the body and cause health issues and use that same argument to label those a sin as well.

Yes.... food can be a HUGE addiction.

I've struggled with food addiction for years.

Don't preach against smoking and make food your god.

Sooo... You are okay with "addictions"?

You can justify smoking, women wearing men's apparel and vice versa if you like. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. I will not be brought under the "power" of anything. 1 Co 6:12

RWP
Paul is determined not to be a slave to anything harmless in itself. He will maintain his self-control.

Paul refused to be brought under the "power" of even "lawful" things yet some here would argue that ungodly things are okay because someone somewhere at sometime did it. This justification is based on them being a "good" person.

Yet, the Bible still says:
(Pro 14:12 KJV) There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

(Pro 16:25 KJV) There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

There is no such thing as a "good" man:
(Psa 14:1 KJV) To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
(Psa 14:3 KJV) They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
(Psa 53:3 KJV) Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
(Mar 10:18 KJV) And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.


The very best man can do is "filthy" in the eyes of God.
(Isa 64:6 KJV) But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
(Rom 3:23 KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


Go ahead, ignore the word of God. If it "feels good" do it. Then, justify it by saying you are "following the spirit". No one can make anyone do anything.

I will "follow" (which means to chase it as if in a hunt) holiness without which no man may see the Lord (Heb. 12:14).

Most "hunt" for the fringes rather than for holiness. They try to see how far away from holiness they can get rather than trying to chase holiness as of in the hunt for it. All the while justifying their carnality with "feelings" rather than the word of God and the timeless principles God has given us to live by.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Pliny

It is good to know that someone's grandfather smoked a pipe; therefore, it is okay to smoke, chew tobacco or other controlled substances because someone somewhere did so in history. Sin must be something that no one has ever done...

Where did I say any of that?

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I knew a fourth generation Apostolic Pentecostal. This young man's great-grandfather was an Apostolic Pentecostal back when the movement was just taking off. He was a farmer. He faithful attended church, read his Bible, raised his children in the fear and admonition of the Lord, and... smoked a pipe. My friend's grandfather (second generation Apostolic) smoked a pipe also, but taught his children against it because it was proven that smoking tobacco was bad for one's health. My friend's father (third generation Apostolic) never smoked. And of course, my friend doesn't smoke.

If you do a little research on the Apostolic movement predating 1930's, you'll discover that there was a wide range of opinions about smoking and it wasn't unheard of for Apostolics to smoke.

And their salvation was never questioned.

...

Special note, it was an almost universal practice throughout the Middle East in Christ's day to chew khat after large meals. It was chewed during after dinner fellowship and helped to clean teeth. The only problem is that khat contains a monoamine alkaloid called cathinone, an amphetamine-like stimulant. While it was very common throughout the Middle East for thousands of years... today it is considered a controlled substance.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Where did I say any of that?

Subjective memory...

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I knew a fourth generation Apostolic Pentecostal. This young man's great-grandfather was an Apostolic Pentecostal back when the movement was just taking off. He was a farmer. He faithful attended church, read his Bible, raised his children in the fear and admonition of the Lord, and... smoked a pipe. My friend's grandfather (second generation Apostolic) smoked a pipe also, but taught his children against it because it was proven that smoking tobacco was bad for one's health. My friend's father (third generation Apostolic) never smoked. And of course, my friend doesn't smoke.

If you do a little research on the Apostolic movement predating 1930's, you'll discover that there was a wide range of opinions about smoking and it wasn't unheard of for Apostolics to smoke.

And their salvation was never questioned.

After it research and science began to prove the dangers of smoking (despite the propaganda and misinformation campaign headed by the tobacco companies) Christian churches began encouraging that people not smoke. As science began to prove the damage smoking causes, many churches chose to label smoking a "sin" ranked up with drinking, carousing, and other unhealthy lifestyles.

Now, does this mean that smoking is a "sin"? I do know that it is one of the most unhealthy habits to have. But just because something is "unhealthy" it doesn't mean it is a "sin". Else being overweight would be "sin". Most Americans eat meals that are too large, this too would be a "sin". Eating foods that are not considered good for you (such as a Big Mac) would be "sin". Drinking soda-pop would be "sin". Drinking various coffees would be "sin"... or having any of these things in excess would be "sin".

I would argue that smoking, being of an unhealthy weight, eating too much, eating unhealthy foods, drinking soda-pop, coffee, etc. can all be considered unhealthy practices. I'd encourage spiritual self-discipline concerning these things and emphasize the blessings of good health. But to just throw the word "sin" around is serious. Sin can land one in Hell. I'm not sure that any of these things will do that.

Special note, it was an almost universal practice throughout the Middle East in Christ's day to chew khat after large meals. It was chewed during after dinner fellowship and helped to clean teeth. The only problem is that khat contains a monoamine alkaloid called cathinone, an amphetamine-like stimulant. While it was very common throughout the Middle East for thousands of years... today it is considered a controlled substance.

So, now the thread has gone from Deuteronomy 22:5 to John M. Allegro.