How Do You Ride a Horse, a Cloud, and a Throne?

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by houston

But that still does not say that THEY will see him

I was pushing the point to see what would be said about the "manner" of this return. I believe those who would see this refers to those of that generation, of which John would have been to only surviving apostle. There are many verses that confirm this generation timeframe. I also believe the "manner" of this coming is more than just an up and down physical journey. I believe the clouds refer to something more since they are used many times in the Bible to speak of God's power and His glory. The apostles would know this. This type return is also confirmed in Scripture. Thus, I see this "manner" and "clouds" agreeing together to form a prophetic message as to what will occur during that return of Christ.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Actually, it is.

"Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." (Act 1:11)

So, the "manner" is just a physical body going up and a physical body coming down? And somehow this was to happen though they would not "see" it? Please explain.

The text doesn't say they would see His return. Whether they would or not is simply not addressed. They saw Him ascend, and it was said He would return in the same manner they saw Him leave, not that they would see Him return.

He bodily ascended to heaven, and He will return in the same manner, that is, bodily.

What are the characteristics or "manner" of His ascension?

1. Personal. He Himself ascended.
2. Bodily. He Himself ascended with or "in" His own actual glorified human body.
3. Visible. He was seen, actually seen, by His disciples, with their actual eyes. He did not ascend invisibly or allegorically.
4. Local. He ascended from an actual physical location in Judea.
5. Temporal. He ascended at a specific point in time. Also, His ascension was not instantaneous or a mere moment, but obviously took some amount of time, however small.
6. Limited. His ascension was not witnessed by everyone but only by a select group of disciples.
7. In the daytime. It seems His ascension occurred during the daylight hours? Although that may be debatable.

When we look at other scriptures pertaining to His return, we can rule out no. 7 as being irrelevant. Nothing to my knowledge states He would return during either the am or pm. Thus, that is not subject to knowing.

We can expand on no. 6, since we elsewhere read "every eye shall see Him" and other scriptures which indicate that at least the whole body of saints will see Him. So His appearing to everyone may not be the exact moment of His initial return when the saints rise to meet Him. It is likely that He will return, gather the resurrected saints together unto Him, then proceed with the remainder of His coming. If He is returning bodily it stands to reason He will return to a particular location, most likely Mt Zion (since God has repeatedly stated that location holds significance to Him). If He is returning at a definite time in which the saints are resurrected and also to execute judgment against His enemies it follows that His return will traverse a period of time (however small) and not be wholly completed in a mere instant. And if "this same Jesus" is to return, then it will be the return of a glorified, resurrected descendant of David who was crucified in the first century and in Whom all the fullness of deity dwells bodily. In other words, that SAME Jesus who ascended will be the same One Who returns.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by houston

But that still does not say that THEY will see him

Right, now TK needs to go explain that to the church he pastors.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

I was pushing the point to see what would be said about the "manner" of this return. I believe those who would see this refers to those of that generation, of which John would have been to only surviving apostle. There are many verses that confirm this generation timeframe. I also believe the "manner" of this coming is more than just an up and down physical journey. I believe the clouds refer to something more since they are used many times in the Bible to speak of God's power and His glory. The apostles would know this. This type return is also confirmed in Scripture. Thus, I see this "manner" and "clouds" agreeing together to form a prophetic message as to what will occur during that return of Christ.

The problem is the passage in Acts 1 is an eyewitness account of an historical happening, and not an apocalyptic vision nor a prophetic monologue using OT imagery. It would be different if Jesus simply disappeared, and angels said "Ye men of Galilee, Jesus shall return in the clouds of judgment flying on the pinions of the Almighty, with the seraphic chariot of Jehovah and the arrows of Divine Justice..."

Rather, they saw Him ascend up into the sky, into a cloud whereupon they lost sight of Him. And angels said "He's coming back in the same manner that He left." He literally did that, they literally saw it, and according to the holy angels He would come back the same way.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The problem is the passage in Acts 1 is an eyewitness account of an historical happening, and not an apocalyptic vision nor a prophetic monologue using OT imagery. It would be different if Jesus simply disappeared, and angels said "Ye men of Galilee, Jesus shall return in the clouds of judgment flying on the pinions of the Almighty, with the seraphic chariot of Jehovah and the arrows of Divine Justice..."

Rather, they saw Him ascend up into the sky, into a cloud whereupon they lost sight of Him. And angels said "He's coming back in the same manner that He left." He literally did that, they literally saw it, and according to the holy angels He would come back the same way.

So, Jesus' return is not about an apocalyptic event? And the OT does not prophesy of a time when the Lord would bring forth an apocalyptic event? Are you sure about that? Please explain.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

So, Jesus' return is not about an apocalyptic event?

I never said that. I said the text in Acts 1 is not apocalyptic imagery but descriptive narrative.

And the OT does not prophesy of a time when the Lord would bring forth an apocalyptic event? Are you sure about that? Please explain.

I never said the OT does not prophesy of a time when the Lord would bring forth an apocalyptic event. And yes, I am sure that I never said such a thing. So (one) explanation is that you have completely misunderstood my words.

The problem is the passage in Acts 1 is an eyewitness account of an historical happening, and not an apocalyptic vision nor a prophetic monologue using OT imagery.

I spoke about the passage, ie the "text" in Acts 1. I said of that passage, that is to say, concerning that text, that it is an eyewitness account of an historical happening, ie a descriptive narrative. I said concerning that text that the text is not an apocalyptic vision - nobody was in a trance or seeing symbolic visions, there is nothing in the text to suggest any such thing. I said the particular text under consideration is not a prophetic monologue using OT imagery, which is obvious as it is simply Luke recording what the disciples experienced.

I never said the return of Jesus would not be an apocalyptic event, I did not say the OT does not describe apocalyptic events. I said the text in Acts 1 is not apocalyptic imagery, symbolic visions, or prophetic monologue using OT symbolism, but instead is simple descriptive narrative.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

I was pushing the point to see what would be said about the "manner" of this return. I believe those who would see this refers to those of that generation, of which John would have been to only surviving apostle.

Can you explain where in Acts ch. 1 you see evidence that only "those of that generation" would see Jesus return in the same manner in which he left?

[houston]

You all are ruining Christmas for me

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by houston

You all are ruining Christmas for me

Good, you don't need that Baal sun worship junk anyway.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Can you explain where in Acts ch. 1 you see evidence that only "those of that generation" would see Jesus return in the same manner in which he left?

The Bible does not compartmentalize its message in neat chapters and verses. Man did that, not God. So, my answer to you would be by verses such as what's found in Acts 2. Here's what Peter said there:

"And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation." (Act 2:40)

This message to save yourself from "THIS rebellious generation" is no different a message than the disciples in Acts 1 had already heard in verses such as these: Matthew 11:16, Matthew 12:41, Matthew 12:42, Matthew 23:36, Matthew 24:34; Mark 8:12, Mark 13:30, Luke 11:30, Luke 11:31, Luke 11:32, Luke 11:50, Luke 11:51, Luke 17:25, Luke 21:32.

The disciples knew Jesus prophesied judgment was to come to their generation. So, when they heard the Heavenly message about the "manner" in which He would return in Acts 1, they applied that to what they had been taught. To imagine their memory of what was foretold about that generation somehow failed them in Acts 1 is pretty hard to imagine.