2 Thess 2

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

What is the certain “apostasy” boys and girls?

What is the falling away?

Since obviously that is the particular time indicator.

It seems that the beginning of the *falling away* is the infiltration of Christianity by Christian Gnostics who were taught by the Gnostic Jews from the Platonic schools in Alexandria, and who in turn developed Catholicism along the lines of Talmudic/Kabala Judaism.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Amanah

It seems that the beginning of the *falling away* is the infiltration of Christianity by Christian Gnostics who were taught by the Gnostic Jews from the Platonic schools in Alexandria, and who in turn developed Catholicism along the lines of Talmudic/Kabala Judaism.

The beginning of the falling away? Paul doesn’t indicate that an apostacy would occurs that continues until the return. Because the “man of sin” would also be perpetual. Right? If you create a scenario which has this falling away happening for 2,000 years and climbing. Then what about the man of sin? What about the apostacy itself? Paul knew what the apostacy was, it was circumcising new Gentile converts and having them keep the law. Gnosticism isn’t indicated in this chapter, or are we pointed towards Gnosticism by the Apostle in his dealing with his churches. Paul deals with Judaizers. Look at what Gnosticism actually is, it is a Christian form of Kabbalah. Therefore scholars confused the practice of the First Century Judaizers with what they knew about Medival Gnosticism.

But again, the falling away is the time indicator. It’s BEGINNING would be the bullet that let everything be exposed. Not a 2,000 years and dragging out flood of apostacy and schisms of apostacys, etc, etc.

No, just one apostacy would open the can of worms and be destroyed by His coming. The apostacy needed the running temple, a complete working law system. Animal sacrifices, priesthood, for newly converted circumcised Gentiles to be brought into. The Hebrew roots movement today is a farce with its Yashuaism and Medieval Judaic customs baptized as Biblical. Falling away at its very start would indicate to the people who were asking the Apostle the question when could the expect the wrap up. To put down all the flash letters they were receiving. Paul didn’t say, don’t worry but that day will not come for 3,900 years.

[houston]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

What is the certain “apostasy” boys and girls?

What is the falling away?

Since obviously that is the particular time indicator.

If I go by what is on Facebook... it’s when the Houston area pastor lights up the sanctuary with Christmas themed colors as he delivers his message while wearing Christmas themed pajamas.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by houston

If I go by what is on Facebook... it’s when the Houston area pastor lights up the sanctuary with Christmas themed colors as he delivers his message while wearing Christmas themed pajamas.

Amen

Because we make eschatology self centric.
We become the last generation, and we view the world around us changing as our unchangeable destiny. So instead of pajama pastor just being weird, some see it as a sign of the times. Just look at the BP spill it was supposed to be Wormwood. Gernobel nuclear accident Wormwood, Hitler antichrist, Ronald Regan 666. Every generation looks at itself as the last, in a unchagble world?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

What is the certain “apostasy” boys and girls?

What is the falling away?

Since obviously that is the particular time indicator.

Preterism, for starters.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Sean

Preterism, for starters.

This is why posting with you is like licking acid coated razor blades. You have nothing to add to the conversation but your idiocy.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

(4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. This man of sin is opposed to God, exalts himself above everything called God or that men worship, establishing himself as if he were God, and he sits in the temple (church) of God, making himself out to be as if he were God, usurping the divine prerogatives of the Spirit.

Concerning dispensational rapturism's false idea that "the man of sin will be a leader who will sit in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem" (which apparently is a belief shared by post-trib futurists and preterists* see note at end), I would remark that such is not what Paul is teaching.

There is no teaching in Scripture of a rebuilt physical Temple, a replacement of the Jerusalem temple whose destruction was prophesied by Christ during His Olivet Prophecy (Matthew 24). As I have already shown, Paul, Peter, Jude, and John, as well as Matthew, taught about a coming apostasy based on the teachings of Christ Himself. Yet there is no mention anywhere by either Christ or any of the apostles about rebuilding the temple that Christ said would be torn down.

Also, a supposed "Antichrist Temple" built by Antichrist could hardly be called the "temple of God", anymore than the current St Peter's Basilica in Vatican City can be called a temple of God.

Thirdly, there are two words translated as "temple" - hieros, and naos. Paul NEVER uses the term naos to refer to the physical temple in Jerusalem. He ONLY uses that term to speak of the church. Allowing Paul to interpret himself, it becomes obvious that "temple of God" in 2 Thessalonians ch 2 is the church, not some physical building in Jerusalem.

Each of these three reasons are sufficient by themselves to debunk any belief of the apostles in a future rebuilt temple occupied by Antichrist. Together, they not only shut the door on the idea, they lock it and throw away the key.

*Note: Many Preterists, as far as I know, believe like dispensationalists and post-trib futurists that the man of sin would occupy the physical temple. They see it as future to the apostle's writings, and fulfilled during the events of Jerusalem's siege and destruction in AD 70. I'll let them explain how, as honestly I haven't a clue, other than that's what I have been told by preterists. Not all preterists believe this, however, according to my understanding.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

2 Thessalonians 2:1-17
(1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, ...
(2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. We beseech you not to be disturbed as though the coming of the Lord and our final gathering together with Him was imminent and upon us.

Now, let's look at the question as to WHY some of the brethren were concerned that the day of Christ was upon them (imminent).

Previously, Paul had written to them and said thus:

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

Now, some people today suppose that Paul's use of the word "we" indicates that he thought he and others then alive would be alive at the coming of the Lord and the resurrection of the saints. This would imply the coming of the Lord and the gathering of the saints unto Him might be right around the corner, they suppose. Apparently, some in Thessalonika made the same mistake!

So Paul corrects them, and tells them not to be deceived on this matter, especially not to think that he Paul was teaching an imminent soon coming of the Lord. He lays out that certain things must take place first.

And this also shows that Paul was not saying he and some others would live to see the coming of the Lord in his and their lifetime. We is first person plural, and means "me plus others". If the speaker is excluded, then there is no "we", there is only "you" or "they". And there is absolutely no evidence that Paul lived to see the destruction of Jerusalem. The testimony of early Christian tradition is pretty much united in affirming Paul died as a martyr during Nero's reign. Now, if Paul indeed died before AD 70, then AD 70 was not the coming of the Lord he speaks of in either of his epistles. Either that, or Paul was deceived about "we" remaining to the Lord's coming. The fact is, Paul didn't make it to the destruction of Jerusalem, and therefore (if the destruction of Jerusalem was the coming of the Lord he speaks of in these epistles) there was no "we who remain".

So no matter how it is sliced, no matter how one understands the coming of the Lord in the Thessalonian epistles, there was no "we" that made it to that event. Which proves that his use of the term "we" is a GENERAL term, meaning "those of us - the Christian church - who are alive and remain". He was not saying "we - I, Paul and some others now currently living - will remain to the coming of the Lord therefore it is not far off at all but will happen in our lifetime."

[Sean]

The man of sin is an actual man.


This is his demise....



19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


A "system" was not cast into the lake, alive.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Sean

The man of sin is an actual man.


This is his demise....



19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


A "system" was not cast into the lake, alive.

I think this means that Imperial systems/kingdoms, and false religious systems that oppose Jesus and the Word of Jesus, along with those who follow/worship those false systems will be destroyed.