Billy Graham

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Because those statements reflect a legalistic, merit-based works salvation, that's why.

Let God be the judge? He is, and God the Judge has spoken on the subject of what people must do. He has also spoken on the subject of alternative gospels and alternative messages.

So why don't you folks actually let God be the Judge, instead of trying to second guess Him?

You make an interesting statement. What are these "legalisms" that you are concerned about?

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Because those statements reflect a legalistic, merit-based works salvation, that's why.

Let God be the judge? He is, and God the Judge has spoken on the subject of what people must do. He has also spoken on the subject of alternative gospels and alternative messages.

So why don't you folks actually let God be the Judge, instead of trying to second guess Him?

Legalistic, merit-based works salvation? Absolutely not true. Did Finney, Wesley, Whitfield, Spurgeon or Graham teach salvation by works or did they preach one must be born again (AKA salvation by grace) of the Spirit to gain entrance into Heaven? We are not talking about different gospels. We are talking about people who, through the Spirit, lived overcoming, sanctified lives and clung to the old rugged cross. Certainly you can reject them on the basis that they never were really born again if you like. But please don't accuse them or Aquila of teaching works based salvation.

[Aquila]

Imagine a school yard with every child pointing a finger screaming at every other child that they are wrong.

Real mature isn't it?

That's what we do spiritually.

I'm saying, when it comes to those who profess faith in the name of Jesus, just give the judgment to God.

It pains me that some don't want to relinquish the right to judge to the only one truly worthy. It is almost as though if they cease to cast their judgments... they're afraid their "God" will topple and their beliefs be compromised. God will judge as He sees fit, regardless of our interpretations and thoughts regarding how He should judge. Therefore, commending a soul to God and allowing Him to be the final arbitrator is actually the only true position with integrity.

[Aquila]

The truth is... and I don't think anyone will deny this...

God will judge all men as He desires to judge them.

I'd never insist that God MUST judge men according to what I believe I see in Scripture, because I'm a human being. I do not have all knowledge. I am not omniscient. I am in no place to make such a judgment. Now, I can agree that if what I read and understand is correct, they aren't saved. But I close the book praying that God have mercy on their souls.

Some here almost seem to relish in the idea that those who do not follow us are lost. I don't find that attitude in Christ. In fact, when confronted with such, Christ's response was much different from that of His disciples:

Mark 9:38-41 King James Version (KJV)
38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

Luke 9:49-50 King James Version (KJV)
49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

When dealing with such a one, I personally believe that it is best to leave their judgment in the hands of God. God will judge as He sees fit regardless of what any of us think. Frankly, this is a position everyone should be able to get behind. It gives such situations to God and allows Him to be the only righteous judge.

[Aquila]

Many of the Preterists here used to be Futurists. What this testifies to is the reality that they walked in error for many years and after study and prayer have come to the conclusion that they were in error, that is why they changed their position. They seem to so quickly forget how God was with them, even as they were stumbling through the darkness.

In this, we know that they are not above being wrong. Though they will speak with an infallibility that rivals that of the Pope himself.

Not being above being wrong, who's to say that they are right regarding their new found Preterism? What if the Historicist is actually right? What if they only traded an error for an error?

Are they humble enough to see this? Did their perceived error while being futurists humble them? Clearly not.

It humbled me. It caused me to realize... I'm not always right. And that reveals that I may very well still be mistaken on a number of things. And this goes for them too.

Error is error. Is there such a thing as a "white lie"? A false teaching is a false teaching. Is there such a thing as a not-so-false-false-teaching? How do they claim that teaching a false teaching on prophecy is any different from teaching a false teaching on Godhead, or regarding the application of the Gospel?

They make excuse for their own error... and assume that God will have mercy... while condemning all comers who are in the very same shoes they are in.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Error is error. Is there such a thing as a "white lie"? A false teaching is a false teaching. Is there such a thing as a not-so-false-false-teaching? How do they claim that teaching a false teaching on prophecy is any different from teaching a false teaching on Godhead, or regarding the application of the Gospel?

Teaching dispensationism vs preterism vs futurism is not the same as teaching the Trinity with 3 co-existant, co-eternal persons or especially teaching that you only need to pray the Sinner's Prayer and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.

The first may be an error, but the latter two will cause a person to be lost.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

Teaching dispensationism vs preterism vs futurism is not the same as teaching the Trinity with 3 co-existant, co-eternal persons or especially teaching that you only need to pray the Sinner's Prayer and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.

The first may be an error, but the latter two will cause a person to be lost.

So, a false doctrine in prophecy will not cost one their soul? Isn't falsehood, falsehood? Isn't a lie a lie? Can both sweet and bitter water flow from the same well?

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

So, a false doctrine in prophecy will not cost one their soul? Isn't falsehood, falsehood? Isn't a lie a lie? Can both sweet and bitter water flow from the same well?

Funny how legalism works. You've twisted yourself into a pretzel to hope Billy into Heaven, but the guy who teaches a different view of prophecy is going to burn.

smh

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

Funny how legalism works. You've twisted yourself into a pretzel to hope Billy into Heaven, but the guy who teaches a different view of prophecy is going to burn.

smh

Again, I've never said that Graham was in Heaven. I was criticized for saying:

I don't believe that Billy Graham knew the fullness of Apostolic truth. But I do believe he truly loved the Lord, and walked in the fullness of what he did know and understand. I pray that God have mercy on his soul, and that God's loving grace will lead him to his eternal reward. We serve a just and loving God, and His mercy endures forever.

I clearly illustrate that if Billy is saved, it would have to be on account of a sovereign act of divine mercy, because Billy didn't know the fullness of biblical truth. I never said that Billy will be in Heaven. If anything, I only hope to see Billy there. But I realize that the reality of such a hope is a long shot, if not impossible, if I read my Bible correctly. So, I leave it in the hands of a just and merciful God who will do as He pleases. Because I trust His judgment (whatever it will be) over my own, or anyone else's.

I find it strange that commending judgment to God seems to make some so insecure that they assume doing so will get Graham into Heaven.

The only reason I can see for this insecurity is that to do so indicates that there is a judge higher than us all... and they clearly don't trust God to judge rightly without their input.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

So, a false doctrine in prophecy will not cost one their soul? Isn't falsehood, falsehood? Isn't a lie a lie? Can both sweet and bitter water flow from the same well?

Also, one's view of eschatology isn't going to d a m n their soul. It is not salvific.