The Apostolic Light Doctrine

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Originalist

What about those who don't claim to know the answers to all of these questions but continue to seek God while leaving it all in his hands? Some die truly not being convinced 100 % on where they stood on some of the issues you mention. Do they then de lost?

Thats the point. Many Apostolics would say well yea we just werent sure. They seem to think they will be ok. But if its anyone outside of Oneness who is not fully convinced they will go to Hell.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Thats the point. Many Apostolics would say well yea we just werent sure. They seem to think they will be ok. But if its anyone outside of Oneness who is not fully convinced they will go to Hell.

This is why, as much as I believe I'm "right", I remind myself I will always fall short of truth, and the glory of God.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Will he look out among the Pre tribs, Preterists and immortal soul adherents and say "I know my word was to hard to understand and really it was not even important anyway! So because you were baptized in Jesus name, even tho you spurned a lot of my truth the kingdom is ALL YOURS!

No one is going to hell over eschatology.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by n david

No one is going to hell over eschatology.

Do deceivers get to go to Heaven?

Apostle Paul writes:

2 Thess 2:1-5

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Was Paul an Apostle? Did he tell the Church....LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU BY ANY MEANS....that day of Christ will NOT COME except there be a falling away first and THAT MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED the son of perdition?

If Paul said whoever teaches the day of Christ can come before the man of sin is revealed he is A DECEIVER, we ask the simple question do deceivers get to go to Heaven?

So do Apostolics somehow get a free pass? They are allowed to be deceivers and be deceived but the horrible deceiving Trinitarian, if THEY deceive someone or are themselves deceived THEY must go straight to Hell for millions, billions, and trillions of years.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Do deceivers get to go to Heaven?

Apostle Paul writes:

2 Thess 2:1-5

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Was Paul an Apostle? Did he tell the Church....LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU BY ANY MEANS....that day of Christ will NOT COME except there be a falling away first and THAT MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED the son of perdition?

If Paul said whoever teaches the day of Christ can come before the man of sin is revealed he is A DECEIVER, we ask the simple question do deceivers get to go to Heaven?

So do Apostolics somehow get a free pass? They are allowed to be deceivers and be deceived but the horrible deceiving Trinitarian, if THEY deceive someone or are themselves deceived THEY must go straight to Hell for millions, billions, and trillions of years.

are you arguing that those who believe false eschatology are lost?

or are you arguing that because Apostolics have various beliefs in eschatology, we should accept that Trinitarians might be saved?

or are you arguing that if we think Trinitarians are lost because they have not obeyed the gospel, that we are lost if we are not perfect in the understanding of our eschatology?

I believe you must obey the gospel to be saved (Acts 2:38).
It's the ABCs of the bible.

I think that eschatology is the PhD of biblical understanding and not having perfect understanding does not send you to hell.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Amanah

are you arguing that those who believe false eschatology are lost?

or are you arguing that because Apostolics have various beliefs in eschatology, we should accept that Trinitarians might be saved?

or are you arguing that if we think Trinitarians are lost because they have not obeyed the gospel, that we are lost if we are not perfect in the understanding of our eschatology?

I believe you must obey the gospel to be saved (Acts 2:38).
It's the ABCs of the bible.

I think that eschatology is the PhD of biblical understanding and not having perfect understanding does not send you to hell.

The bolded gets closest. Why why Trins be held to the standard of loving the truth and we would not? Why would Jesus not judge us for teaching falsely about his coming? Paul said certain people would try to DECEIVE YOU about the 2nd coming in 2 Thess 1-5.

If the Spirit counts such men as deceivers do you think they will go to Heaven?

And really its not just about the rapture. Its the foundation teachings of Christ.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Do deceivers get to go to Heaven?

Apostle Paul writes:

2 Thess 2:1-5

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Was Paul an Apostle? Did he tell the Church....LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU BY ANY MEANS....that day of Christ will NOT COME except there be a falling away first and THAT MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED the son of perdition?

If Paul said whoever teaches the day of Christ can come before the man of sin is revealed he is A DECEIVER, we ask the simple question do deceivers get to go to Heaven?

So do Apostolics somehow get a free pass? They are allowed to be deceivers and be deceived but the horrible deceiving Trinitarian, if THEY deceive someone or are themselves deceived THEY must go straight to Hell for millions, billions, and trillions of years.

We've debated this before. Paul is simply admonishing the church there to not buy into the hype that Christ's return was "at hand."

Context matters. You're twisting the passage to try and frame your eschatology belief into it, while damning the rest of us who don't agree with your views.

As far as Trinnies go -- they reject the Oneness of God. The literal foundational belief is there is one God. So to claim trinnies and people who believe in some eschatological view other than yours is just ridiculous and absurd.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Ok. Fine. But now what about people AFTER Acts 2:38? Are they given a pass because THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND BIBLICAL TRUTH? Is Jesus ok with us coming together all with different views of his truth?

Will he look out among the Pre tribs, Preterists and immortal soul adherents and say "I know my word was to hard to understand and really it was not even important anyway! So because you were baptized in Jesus name, even tho you spurned a lot of my truth the kingdom is ALL YOURS!

See the point? Apostolics cut themselves an eternal break when it comes to not understanding truth that they wont allow for anyone else.

Great points.

I actually had two trains of thought that passed through my mind as I contemplated the points you made. And they are very different from one another. On is more practical, the other is more spiritual. So, I'll share them both in two different posts in response to the points you've made.

First, the more practical line of reasoning...

In my family there are liberals, conservatives, Democrats, Republicans, and at least one Libertarian. There are parents who believe in free range parenting, and parents who believe in helicopter parenting. Some are religious, others are not. Some put much emphasis on health and wellness, others do not. We often debate, bicker, and fight with one another over our different takes on politics, religion, parenting, food, etc.

But we're family. Those outside of our family are not. On some family discussions, it's best if a visitor not involve themselves. On some lighter issues, we might welcome them into the discussion. But remember, they are not family. When push comes to shove, we'll unite against an outsider who is too nasty to one of us, regardless of our differences, and regardless as to if a part of the family would ordinarily agree with that persons position on something. And no, we don't give the outsider the same rights among us as we give one another.

Family is family.

Those who have been born again (Acts 2:38) are family. Paul uses terms in reference to other believers such as elders, brothers, sisters, mothers, etc. We might have disagreements on various interpretations of the Bible. We might debate, disagree, argue, slam doors, etc. in our family "discussions" if disagreements become too heated. But again, we're family.

Those who have not been born into our family are not family and any position they hold or don't hold is immaterial to our family.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Great points.

I actually had two trains of thought that passed through my mind as I contemplated the points you made. And they are very different from one another. On is more practical, the other is more spiritual. So, I'll share them both in two different posts in response to the points you've made.

First, the more practical line of reasoning...

In my family there are liberals, conservatives, Democrats, Republicans, and at least one Libertarian. There are parents who believe in free range parenting, and parents who believe in helicopter parenting. Some are religious, others are not. Some put much emphasis on health and wellness, others do not. We often debate, bicker, and fight with one another over our different takes on politics, religion, parenting, food, etc.

But we're family. Those outside of our family are not. On some family discussions, it's best if a visitor not involve themselves. On some lighter issues, we might welcome them into the discussion. But remember, they are not family. When push comes to shove, we'll unite against an outsider who is too nasty to one of us, regardless of our differences, and regardless as to if a part of the family would ordinarily agree with that persons position on something. And no, we don't give the outsider the same rights among us as we give one another.

Family is family.

Those who have been born again (Acts 2:38) are family. Paul uses terms in reference to other believers such as elders, brothers, sisters, mothers, etc. We might have disagreements on various interpretations of the Bible. We might debate, disagree, argue, slam doors, etc. in our family "discussions" if disagreements become too heated. But again, we're family.

Those who have not been born into our family are not family and any position they hold or don't hold is immaterial to our family.

Oh ok I see. When Paul warned not to let ANYONE DECEIVE them, since the deceivers are family they get to go to Heaven!

Is this not the Apostolic light doctrine? Or is is it the Apostolic OSAS doctrine?

ALL THAT MATTERS IS ACTS 2:38!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Ok. Fine. But now what about people AFTER Acts 2:38? Are they given a pass because THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND BIBLICAL TRUTH? Is Jesus ok with us coming together all with different views of his truth?

Will he look out among the Pre tribs, Preterists and immortal soul adherents and say "I know my word was to hard to understand and really it was not even important anyway! So because you were baptized in Jesus name, even tho you spurned a lot of my truth the kingdom is ALL YOURS!

See the point? Apostolics cut themselves an eternal break when it comes to not understanding truth that they wont allow for anyone else.

The second line of reasoning is...

Are we defining "truth" correctly?

We often talk about truth. We hear it in almost every sermon, at least two or three times. "Truth, truth, truth, truth." We tend to look at truth as though it is doctrine. However... what if "truth" isn't necessarily doctrine... but rather a more abstract or spiritual reality?

Jesus said,

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

If we stop and contemplate Christ's words we realize that it is Jesus who is "truth". Truth isn't so much as a doctrine, but a person. And who is Jesus? Jesus is God. And what is God? God is a Spirit. And what is the very essence of that Spirit? Love itself.

Jesus is Divine Love incarnate. Divine Love is truth.

Abiding in a state of agape, a state of love, is to abide within the bonds of love. And love supersedes all interpretations, doctrines, and opinions. It even fulfills the law itself:

Romans 13:8-10 English Standard Version (ESV)
8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

We read again in Galatians,

Galatians 5:14 English Standard Version (ESV)
14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

We bicker, argue, fight, debate, and divide over interpretations, doctrines, and various commandments in Scripture. But that is only on the intellectual level. There's a deeper spiritual reality abiding in our inner man. The underlying divine reality of it all is quite simple and yet... unexplainably profound. Love. Divine love is the truth that unifies and eliminates all human inconsistencies. Being Pre-Trib, Post-Trib, Preterist, none of that matters if one doesn't have love. And if one has love... none of it matters because one has love.

I believe it was once asked of Hillel of Shammai, "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." And Hillel answered:

"That which is hateful unto you do not do to your neighbor. This is the whole of the Torah, The rest is commentary. Go forth and study.”

The fullness of all truth and doctrine is to abide in a state of love. In this, abiding in truth is more of a state of being than it is a state of "doing" or "believing". For in the eternal state, all of these differences will fade from consciousness as we behold the only divine reality that is... Jesus. All our family differences, so to speak, will be as inconsequential as children comparing shoes and arguing over whose is best in a schoolyard.

This concept is hard for me to put into words. It is more "felt" and "experienced" or "known" than it is matter of empirical logic of the human mind that can be dissected and examined. To put on the mind of Christ, the glorified Christ, and abide in such a reality while on earth would be the greatest of spiritual illuminations and would cause all difference within to be viewed from an eternal perspective.

But the carnal mind, the soulish mind, the flesh, the ego, desires ascendency, dominance, and demands answers, and then requires and demands compliance to self-conceived, and even self-contrived, answers that are mere illusions that gratify our innate spiritual pride... to the hurt and division of the body.

If we are one spirit with the Lord (I Corinthians 6:17), then we are one spirit with one another. If we are all branches of the True Vine, then we are living extensions of the a single organism, the body, the bride of Christ. And so, you are an extension of Christ, as am I... and we are thus living extensions of one another. Spiritually speaking, you are me... and I am you... and we are Him... and He is us. There is no separation. Separation is a result of the failed perception of the carnal mind. For we all have HIS Spirit abiding in us, and HE is "our" very life. We are one in Him, even as He is one in the Father. And thus we begin to unveil the surface of the awesome spiritual reality that Christ spoke of when He said...

John 14:20 (ESV)
In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.

Oneness truth, or doctrine, ceases to be merely a Christology... but becomes an ontological soteriologic reality.

And we realize the depth of Maranatha. Come Lord Jesus. Not only in the sense of what we would typically call the Second Coming... but also in the sense of He being made manifest in us, as we are conformed into His very image and likeness through our union with Him by virtue of His abiding Holy Spirit in us.

And so... truth becomes an elevated concept beyond our human perceptions and primitive self-conceived conclusions that is experienced and discerned through the Holy Spirit. And the truth becomes something more akin to what is realized and heard in the purity of a baby's cry... or the unintelligible groaning of divine utterance.

Truth is... Jesus.

Let us abide in the truth undefinable. Let us abide in the one beyond all definition. Let us abide in... Jesus. Let us abide in... His love.

And then "truth" shall truly be known.