BY THIS STANDARD-Greg L. Bahnsen

[Amanah]

Religious leaders who commit or cover up sexual abuse also need to die:

In a remarkable and scathing recrimination, the Vatican’s former ambassador to Washington accused Pope Francis and his predecessor Pope Benedict XVI on Sunday of knowingly hiding sexual abuse allegations involving a now-disgraced American cardinal, further convulsing a church in crisis.

The former envoy’s 11-page broadside rocked the Roman Catholic world as Francis finished a two-day visit to Ireland, where he faced demonstrations and begged forgiveness in the once-fervently Catholic country for the “scandal and betrayal” done by decades of clerical sex abuse, and an elaborate cover-up by church authorities.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-fg-...826-story.html

[Esaias]

The laws of God (His commandments, statutes, judgments, ordinances, etc) were given to Israel to be a witness and a light to all nations:

Deuteronomy 4:5-8 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. (6) Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. (7) For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for? (8) And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

The nations are to learn the law of Jehovah from his witnessing people:

Isaiah 2:2-5 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. (3) And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. (4) And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. (5) O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

There are only two ways for society to be governed: either by rebellious man following rebellious antichrist philosophies, or by righteous men following God's Word. Jesus declared that man is to live by "every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God". The attitude of wicked and rebellious man and his ideas of "secular government" are summed up by the Psalm:

Psalms 2:1-3 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? (2) The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, (3) Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

The apostolic church understood this correctly and clearly:

Acts 4:23-31 And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them. (24) And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: (25) Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? (26) The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. (27) For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, (28) For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. (29) And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, (30) By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. (31) And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

Powers and principalities are secular authorities:

Titus 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

Christianity is at war with them:

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

This warfare is not one of physical weapons, but spiritual and ideological:

2 Corinthians 10:3-5 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (4) (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) (5) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

The church's mission includes the mandate to teach the secular authorities the will and ways of God:

Ephesians 3:9-11 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: (10) To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, (11) According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. (19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

[CalledOut238]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The church's mission includes the mandate to teach the secular authorities the will and ways of God:

I have been out typed on this reply, Esaias. ! I am in no way arguing against the theocracy that Christ will institute and establish after the resurrection and judgment.

Revelation 21:1 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

When interpreting scriptures we must always consider the audience the verses were intended for at time they were written. As well as their symbolic meaning for those saints in the future who should consider their application in their lives. To respond to your usage of 1 Timothy 1:8-11, I would ask that we examine the previous verse to put this in context. Timothy is rebuking those blending the Traditions of the Elders; with the Torah, and mandating these teachings be incorporated into the new Christian faith.

1Timothy 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

Strong's G3547 nomodidáskalos; from G3551 and G1320; an expounder of the (Jewish) law, i.e. a Rabbi: doctor (teacher) of the law.

In verse eight we see Timothy using a simile of civil and Mosaic law. Ask yourself who are the listeners? Saints or Sinners? I am sure you will affirm that the answer is obvious. Timothy is using the comparison of civil and Mosaic laws to teach a spiritual principle. The Mosaic law was only punitive to those who disobeyed that law in that period. This punitive recourse is true for those who disobey the civil laws in current times.

11Timothy 1:8 (KJV) But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully.

Strong's G3551 nómos; from a primary némō (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), genitive case (regulation), specially, (of Moses (including the volume); also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle): law.

Using the verses of Deuteronomy 17:14-20 only confirms the original Mosaic Law was the guiding principles of a Theocratic society for the children of Israel. Our Heavenly Father wanted the Israelites to show the nations His glory by following these principles. To shine the light of the One true God being ruler of the nations. And this is a type and shadow of Christ’s Kingdom with the New Heaven and Earth. But it also showed the weakness of the fleshly covenant in which the inner man was not converted. The Israelites failed with this glorious calling out and desired to be like the other nations. The Old Covenant and their Savior was REJECTED by the people of the covenant!

1 Samuel 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

“Communism: communism (from Latin communis, "common, universal") is the philosophical, social, political, and economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of the communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money and the state.

Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterized by social ownership and workers' self-management of the means of production as well as the political theories and movements associated with them Fascism:
Fascism is a form of radical authoritarian ultra nationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and control of industry and commerce.

Democracy: Democracy (Greek: dēmokratía, literally "rule by people"), "Rule of the majority" is sometimes referred to as democracy

Anarchy is the condition of a society, entity, group of people, or a single person that rejects hierarchy. The word originally meant leaderlessness, but in 1840 Pierre-Joseph Proudhon adopted the term in his treatise What Is Property? to refer to a new political philosophy: anarchism, which advocates stateless societies based on voluntary associations.

Republic: (Latin: res publica) is a form of government in which the country is considered a "public matter", not the private concern or property of the rulers. The primary positions of power within a republic are not inherited.

Oligarchy: (from Greek oligarkhía; from olígos, meaning 'few', and arkho, meaning 'to rule or to command'. Is a form of power structure in which power rests with a small number of people. These people may be distinguished by nobility, wealth, family ties, education or corporate, religious or military control.”

These are all definitions of governmental forms from Wikipedia. I really don’t like Wikipedia that much, but most go there when doing a quick research of terms. I do agree that if the righteous are in power; and are following Godly principles, that the people would fair better. But what we face today is an Oligarchical rule of the International Satanic elite. Those who are righteous trying to get into political position in any of these forms of government must comply with their world vision. Theonomy is noble and is the foundation of the Messianic Kingdom that will be instituted when Christ reigns. The reason this will work for Christ’s Kingdom? He is the Righteous King, Judge and High priest; that no man will ever be able to duplicate, because he is the Creator incarnate. As far as these earthly systems of governments of men they will all fade away as dust in the wind. Do I need to source Kansas?

Daniel 2:44 (KJV) And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Nothing wrong with longing for a theocratic society; but until then, I believe the church’s responsibility is to the Lost of the World. To share the Gospel and see sinners being born again and converted by the Spirit of Christ. We can change the world by letting the Love of the Holyghost; that is shed abroad in our hearts, to be the light into the darkness of this world.

Matthew 5:14 (KJV) Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Selah

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by CalledOut238

I have been out typed on this reply, Esaias. ! I am in no way arguing against the theocracy that Christ will institute and establish after the resurrection and judgment.

Yes, the whole world shall be submitted to Christ, and sin itself will be no more. BUT, because Christ reigns now and His Kingdom is to be advanced in this age by the preaching of the Gospel, we should avoid the temptation to batten down the hatches and hide out, as it were, from our responsibity to represent Christ to all people and nations. Which many in this day have unfortunately done, retreating from the conflict and surrendering the field to the enemy.

We can change the world by letting the Love of the Holyghost; that is shed abroad in our hearts, to be the light into the darkness of this world.

Matthew 5:14 (KJV) Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Selah.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Yes, the whole world shall be submitted to Christ, and sin itself will be no more. BUT, because Christ reigns now and His Kingdom is to be advanced in this age by the preaching of the Gospel, we should avoid the temptation to batten down the hatches and hide out, as it were, from our responsibity to represent Christ to all people and nations. Which many in this day have unfortunately done, retreating from the conflict and surrendering the field to the enemy.

Secular society dominates all the predominant forms of communication/education:

Social Media
Public Schools
Universities/colleges
TV/Movies

I believe we need to communicate the gospel and truth to our culture with any means available to us.
We can teach responsible use of technology without banning it because it is an important platform of communication.

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Secular society dominates all the predominant forms of communication/education:

Social Media
Public Schools
Universities/colleges
TV/Movies

I believe we need to communicate the gospel and truth to our culture with any means available to us.
We can teach responsible use of technology without banning it because it is an important platform of communication.

It’s too late. Shoulda took the market before TBN spread.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Secular society dominates all the predominant forms of communication/education:

Social Media
Public Schools
Universities/colleges
TV/Movies

I believe we need to communicate the gospel and truth to our culture with any means available to us.
We can teach responsible use of technology without banning it because it is an important platform of communication.

The problem is "we" have allowed our teaching to be infected with secular ideology, so the message "we" have is just humanism wrapped in Christianese. (By "we" I mean oneness pentecostalism in general. There are exceptions, but a random perusal of oneness pentecostal church websites and ministry websites will reveal that a large number, if not a majority, are peddling humanistic ideologies as "the gospel". And, of course, this true of practically every sect of American Christendom.)

So, there isn't any point, really, to "reaching the masses with our message" until we actually have a Message worth distributing.

[Amanah]

We are on the verge of hard core socialism, Dems coming out as proud socialists/communists.

We now have children coming out as gays, gays are celebrated in our society, and to say anything against them is hate speech now.

Our greatest revivals are happening in countries that are in economic collapse, with failed govt.

Our prison system is a joke.

Priests continue to molest children and apologize and nothing happens to them.

Maybe there was a time in this country when Christian people could make a govt based on enlightenment ideals work, but that time has passed. Our govt is legislating in favor of sin.

Liberty has become licentious.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

We are on the verge of hard core socialism, Dems coming out as proud socialists/communists.

We now have children coming out as gays.

Our prison system is a joke.

Priests continue to molest children and apologize and nothing happens to them.

Maybe there was a time in this country when Christian people could make a govt based on enlightenment ideals work, but that time has passed.

The "Enlightenment" was just another form of humanism raising its ugly head, although it was tempered by the fact that it occurred among a generally professingly Christian population. Therefore, the humanists could not go as hard-core as they would have liked (Voltaire, the Jacobins, etc being attempted exceptions).

Personally, I think the future lies with the younger generations, who are giving evidences of being essentially sick and tired of the gluttony of insanity previous generations have bestowed upon them. The radical individualism of the previous decades is being questioned by them, many of them are looking back to tradition and family as things that need to be valued and restored.

Nature has a habit of correcting things, and Nature is just a euphemism for God's Providential control of things.

I recently met up with some family, including a cousin who I had never met before. He's younger than I am by about 15 years or so. Yet, his ideal is to have a family on a piece of land and be self sufficient, free from unwarranted interference by government. Unlike my generation, who at his age wanted nothing more than big screen tv's, endless vacations, and a great job at a great company, with all the perks of lasciviousness.

So, things are not as bleak as they may at first appear. One just has to escape from the modern "want it now" mentality, and understand we didn't get into this mess overnight, and we're not getting out of it overnight, either.

[Amanah]

What a Theonomic society would look like

Life and Liberty

Life would have its utmost protection in a theonomic state. It would be protected both by the state and from the state. Murderers would be executed (Ex. 21:12–14, 18–25; Lev. 24:17, 19–22). Children in the womb would be protected as living persons. Anyone causing injury to an unborn child would be liable for damages (Ex. 21:22–25). Anyone willfully or through criminal negligence causing the death of an unborn child would be considered a murderer and subject to the death penalty. Abortion would, therefore, be strictly outlawed.

People would be strictly liable for the safety of others on their property. Those found negligent would be strictly liable for damages up to and including criminal negligence for life (Ex. 21:29–36; Deut. 22:8). Pets or livestock known to be a threat to life must be controlled as such. If one should cause injury, damages, or death, the owner could be held liable for all damages up to the death penalty (Ex. 21:29–30). The principle of liability in general, and for life in particular, certainly would extend to factory conditions, workplaces, businesses open to the public, machinery, and more.
Under biblical law, freedom is an aspect of life. While a rehabilitaional form of servitude would exist, the type of chattel (ownership) slavery practiced in the American South would never have existed. Kidnapping, human trafficking, and slave trading all would be punishable by death (Ex. 21:16; Deut. 24:7). Likewise, terrorists, hijackers, all hostage-takers, and carjackers who hold people against their will. The slave traders of the Old South (and other places) would have been executed for their crimes. Likewise, the Fugitive Slave Act would never have been allowed. Slaves escaped from unbiblical jurisdictions would never be returned to their enslavers, but given refuge, freedom, and protection of law, and treated like every other citizen (Deut. 23:15–16). Refugees of war or tyranny would receive similar protections.

By these same life-freedom laws, citizens and families would be protected from the state itself. Government agents who seize children from parents, or who otherwise make false arrests or false imprisonments, could be held liable under laws against kidnapping. Police abuse would disappear as such accountability increased. The privacy of the home would be inviolate (Deut. 24:10–11). A man’s home is his castle, and the castle doctrine would return to its earlier strength, uncompromised by loopholes created by the Supreme Court.

Further, life is protected against malicious witness and fraudulent prosecution. Corrupt individuals who wish to harm others under the color of law will nevertheless meet several hindrances. Two or three witness are required to bring any conviction (Deut. 17:6; 19:15). Upon any conviction, the accusers themselves must be the first among parties to an execution (Deut. 13:9; 17:7). Malicious witnesses, however, when discovered, will receive for themselves whatever penalty they wished to execute upon the falsely accused, up to the death penalty (Deut. 19:16–21). This would create a powerful deterrent, which is non-existent today, against false accusations and false prosecutions. Government officials will be held to the same standards as everyone else. Prosecutorial and police immunities would be greatly curtailed if not eliminated.

The laws of warfare maximize the protection of life even during the tragic event of war. Standing armies and military drafts are outlawed. Militias could only be mustered in response to an imminent threat or attack from an enemy. The law provides several exceptions to militia service, including an exception for those who are merely fearful. Anyone perceiving any particular cause to be unjust, and thus anticipating God’s judgment, could decline to serve. This and all other exceptions would not only save conscientious and innocent lives, but would discourage unjust wars. Such conscientious objection would also be considered socially acceptable and even laudable. Only after briefing and allowance for these exceptions would officers be appointed. War proceeds first with attempts at negotiation for peace. If the aggressor refuses peace, war may ensue, but only against military targets. Militias may not target innocents or food or water sources. Upon victory, the nation may extract the costs of warfare from the defeated aggressor (Deut. 20). This means no more lasting debts due to wars, and no more tax increases or inflation to pay for them.

In short, all attempts are made to spare innocent or conscientious life, and warfare is only conducted to repel invaders or attacks. Such laws also entail a foreign policy of non-intervention in general. A theonomic state does not police the world looking for monsters to destroy.

https://americanvision.org/14057/wha...-table-vision/