Rules and Spirit

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Huh? You mean if I follow after Jesus' rule to treat others like I wish to be treated I'm walking in the flesh and not the spirit? Unless your definition of "rules" is standards and not the teachings of Jesus. Would you consider any of Jesus' teaching to be rules?

Good question!

Put it this way: Jesus said that if we love him we will see ourselves keeping his commandments. We just WILL keep them. This is what it means to have His law written in our hearts. We need to cease looking for rules on paper and look inward into our hearts where the Law of God is written on fleshy tables.

In regards to your example of your thought that Christ had a rule in saying we must treat folks the way we wish to be treated, anything Jesus said is something the Spirit must empower us to do. Reading a rule and trying OUR BEST to fulfill it is what I was speaking against. We need God's Spirit empowering us. My point is basically that sinners can read a list of rules and exert their will power to keep them. The New Testament goes beyond that. Sinners cannot do what we can do in the Spirit. So this is one way to determine whether or not we are truly living in the Spirit. If a sinner can do what we're doing, then we're not living after the Spirit.

Pressing On mentioned the idea that there are so many rules in the New Testament. I disagree, sis. I think the error of so many has been to make the New Testament another rule book like the Law of Moses. God never intended that.

For example, the beattitudes cannot be "kept" as rules. They simply describe the STATE OF A PERSON'S HEART. And only God can make our hearts that way. I would say that anything that could appear as a "rule" in the New Testament, which can be accomplished by anyone with or without the Spirit, is something we have mistaken as a rule. Many of the things Jesus described were things that people can only do if they are empowered by the Holy Ghost.

If anything is required of us similar to a rule, it is something that we must actually rely upon the Holy Ghost in us to be able to accomplish it. Without the Spirit, we cannot do the things Jesus said... at least not do them genuinely the way God expects them to be done.

[mizpeh]

What is the law of God?

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by mfblume

We read in Galatians and Romans that law came to "keep" Israel until the Lord would come in incarnation. It was temporary! And Paul noted that rules and legislation were ONLY for Israel during their immatuire state before the Lord came. Gal 4 speaks of Israel being children and only heirs during the time of law. But once Christ came, graduation occurred and God knew it was tiome for spiritual maturity to begin. Hence, out with rule books and intrduction to walking after the Spirit with new birth.

We can look at individuals in the same light. Those who CANNOT learn to walk in the Spirit, and seem to WANT rules and codes are simply spiritually immature. It is so easy to live by a set of rules. Our fleshly nature is very accustomed to that. We have rules everywhere, even in secular society. But to learn to be led by the Spirit and walk in that Spirit is far beyond the experience of rule keeping.

Keep in mind that when we walk after the Spirit, we will nto fulfill lusts of the flesh, and we will live the way Law TRIED TO get Israel to live, yet we do it all without resorting to a list of rules!

So many in churches today, apostolics and all, would far sooner live by rules. Folks, we have to mature. It's high time we walk after the Spirit!

I first saw the title and it sounded like a thought I would find enjoyable and then I saw who authored the thread and I knew it was going to be great.

Excellent writing brother.

In todays church world those who would begin a movement to maturity are often marked as rebellious and in the midst of a wonderful maturity in Christ they are thrown off kilter by a reaction they do not understand.

Spiritual maturity is a what God desires for all of us.

[simplyme]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

I first saw the title and it sounded like a thought I would find enjoyable and then I saw who authored the thread and I knew it was going to be great.

YES, me too.
Excellent writing brother.

In todays church world those who would begin a movement to maturity are often marked as rebellious and in the midst of a wonderful maturity in Christ they are thrown off kilter by a reaction they do not understand.
Spiritual maturity is a what God desires for all of us.

AMEN AMEN!

GREAT POST!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

I first saw the title and it sounded like a thought I would find enjoyable and then I saw who authored the thread and I knew it was going to be great.

Excellent writing brother.

In todays church world those who would begin a movement to maturity are often marked as rebellious and in the midst of a wonderful maturity in Christ they are thrown off kilter by a reaction they do not understand.

Spiritual maturity is a what God desires for all of us.

Wow, great summation, and thanks for your kind words.

Yes, the way Paul spoke of law and faith in Romans was misunderstood, too. That is why Paul kept clarifying his point by asking a hypothetical question he knew people would ask in error, and correcting it himself.

"Should we sin that grace may abound? God forbid!"

"Shall we sin because we are not under law? God forbid."

I have had people ask these VERY SAME QUESTIONS!

Paul was amazing in predicting a carnal response from those who simply cannot relate to spirituality. WOW.

[RandyWayne]

I like the subject of this thread.

"Rules" create loopholes. "Principles" do not.

It is the reason that new laws created by congress are often thousands, to tens of thousands of pages long. Because it is possible to commit a crime and somehow fall between some unseen-when-written crack and not be prosecuted.
For instance, did you know that up until a few short years ago, ANYONE could plant a video camera in your shower and watch (obviously unaware)? What would any guy here do when he found out the guy with the beer belly living next door had been watching your wife?
The law could not do a thing about it because only LISTENING was considered illegal. Video was not covered.

The same is done in the churches. I understand the INTENT of MOST "standards" yet I cannot tell you how often I have been to services and especially camp meetings where the women were done up every bit as much as starlets on the red carpet at the latest Hollywood premier. Every hair hairsprayed in place as much as a bride on her wedding. Wearing their very best cloths. Simply there to be seen.
(Guys are not exempt. It's just not QUITE as obvious with us.)

It could be said that every RULE was being kept to the letter. But the spirit was being completely thrown out the window.

[RevDWW]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

I like the subject of this thread.

"Rules" create loopholes. "Principles" do not.

It is the reason that new laws created by congress are often thousands, to tens of thousands of pages long. Because it is possible to commit a crime and somehow fall between some unseen-when-written crack and not be prosecuted.
For instance, did you know that up until a few short years ago, ANYONE could plant a video camera in your shower and watch (obviously unaware)? What would any guy here do when he found out the guy with the beer belly living next door had been watching your wife?
The law could not do a thing about it because only LISTENING was considered illegal. Video was not covered.

The same is done in the churches. I understand the INTENT of MOST "standards" yet I cannot tell you how often I have been to services and especially camp meetings where the women were done up every bit as much as starlets on the red carpet at the latest Hollywood premier. Every hair hairsprayed in place as much as a bride on her wedding. Wearing their very best cloths. Simply there to be seen.
(Guys are not exempt. It's just not QUITE as obvious with us.)

It could be said that every RULE was being kept to the letter. But the spirit was being completely thrown out the window.

Good comments.
The letter kills, the Spirit gives life.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

I like the subject of this thread.

"Rules" create loopholes. "Principles" do not.

So true...

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by mfblume

We read in Galatians and Romans that law came to "keep" Israel until the Lord would come in incarnation. It was temporary! And Paul noted that rules and legislation were ONLY for Israel during their immatuire state before the Lord came. Gal 4 speaks of Israel being children and only heirs during the time of law. But once Christ came, graduation occurred and God knew it was tiome for spiritual maturity to begin. Hence, out with rule books and intrduction to walking after the Spirit with new birth.

We can look at individuals in the same light. Those who CANNOT learn to walk in the Spirit, and seem to WANT rules and codes are simply spiritually immature. It is so easy to live by a set of rules. Our fleshly nature is very accustomed to that. We have rules everywhere, even in secular society. But to learn to be led by the Spirit and walk in that Spirit is far beyond the experience of rule keeping.

Keep in mind that when we walk after the Spirit, we will nto fulfill lusts of the flesh, and we will live the way Law TRIED TO get Israel to live, yet we do it all without resorting to a list of rules!

So many in churches today, apostolics and all, would far sooner live by rules. Folks, we have to mature. It's high time we walk after the Spirit!

Bro Blume,

Are there different types of rules? For instance there is the Law of Moses, and,

Rom 3:27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

1 Cor 9:20-21 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

Is there a law or rule we must keep and we do this 'keeping' by walking and being led of the Spirit?

[mfblume]

Very good points we're reading here, folks.

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Bro Blume,

Are there different types of rules? For instance there is the Law of Moses, and,

Rom 3:27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

As Digging.. said, a law is principle. The law of gravity, for instance, is a "source" or principle from which things react a certain way, given the circumstances required for it to fall under the law. When we qualify for a law to work, we will expect to see the same results.

The law of faith says that if we believe and trust, then we can expect certain results. But the law of Moses is certainly different. It is what Paul called carnal ordinances. The flesh is appealed to by it. It relates to flesh, which is all God could do before Giving His Spirit and redeeming men.

Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Principles are here again. Here, Paul noted that his will was present to obey the Mosaic law of God, but he could not do it. His flesh, instead, alkways tended towards sinning.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

The Law of Moses is mentioned above in that verse.

1 Cor 9:20-21 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

Is there a law or rule we must keep and we do this 'keeping' by walking and being led of the Spirit?

Yes! But it is not a carnal ordinance. You raise a good point. Perhaps it is better to speak about carnal rules versus spiritual ones. Since this righteousness without the law falls under another sort of law -- that of faith -- there are certain qualifications we must hold in order to experience that righteousness.

Romans 8:2 also mentions the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. The way we relate to this law is not through the means by which people relate to the Law of Moses. Our spirits discern God's ways in the law of the Spirit, whereas our flesh relates to the law of Moses.

So in my title, Rules and Spirit, both are involving LAWS. It's just that the flesh relates to the Law of Moses and the human born again spirit relates to the Law of Faith. But we've been so entrenched in carnality all our lives so that after we are saved we find it far easier to resort to the WRITTEN law of Moses, and turn the New Testament into something similar, instead of learning to be spiritual and walking after the Spirit and relating to the inward law written on our hearts.