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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #1  
Old 09-18-2007, 11:58 AM
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. This story illustrates the Hebrew belief that God could communicate messages of vital importance through either men or women. No character in the Old Testament stands out in bolder relief than Deborah-prophetess, ruler, warrior, and proctor.
Meroz was cursed because they came not to the aid of the Lord - not helping Deborah was not helping the Lord. Helping Deborah was helping the Lord!
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Old 09-18-2007, 11:59 AM
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II Chronicles 34:22: "And Hilkiah, and they that the king had appointed went to Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvath, the son of Hasrah, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college and they spake to her to that effect."
Josiah, king of Israel, began to reign and did what was right in the sight of God. In the eighteenth year of his reign, Josiah sent men to repair the house of the Lord. That’s when the book of the law (Bible) was found. When it was read before the king, he rent his clothes and sent Hilkiah and Shaphan, the scribe and Asaiah, to find someone who could give them a Word from God. It was not long until they were sitting at prophetess Huldah's feet learning and hearing the word of God.
Think about what a great event it was as Huldah rose above her disadvantages and operated in a supernatural ministry in Israel.
Let’s study some of Huldah's life. She was a prophetess, a woman that was God’s voice to the people. Her calling was special and her ministry was notable; yet she was a housewife. Her husband’s name was Shallum. He was the keeper of the king’s wardrobe. Like all godly women, she took care of her husband.
Her marriage with all of its responsibilities did not keep her from obeying the call of God. She knew how to harmonize each responsibility. At this time, Israel had other well-known prophets such as Habakkuk, Zephaniah, and Jeremiah who were continually insisting that the people return to God.
Huldah dwelt in Jerusalem in the college (II. Chronicles 34:22). It must have been there that she gave counsel to the people. Some have thought that Huldah taught at the school of prophets, which included women. She taught and had authority. Jeremiah possibly could have been one of her students. Huldah openly did her job; there was no need for her to hide as some prophets have tried to do. She could hear the noise of the rebuilding of the temple.
One evening she saw five men coming to her. No doubt she recognized Hezekiah the high priest along with Shaphan and many others. They told her about finding the Law of Moses in the house of God, how they read it to the king, and that he had sent them to find someone with a word from God. They also realized that they were living so far from God’s law. Maybe Huldah wondered why they had come to her instead of Jeremiah or another prophet. However, she, like prophetesses of long ago, was a willing and capable worker among men.
God needed someone to declare His will on earth. Usually God used a man, but this particular time He used a woman. No doubt showing once again He will use whom ever He chooses. Huldah perfectly understood she was not in competition with men. So she did not try to shun her responsibilities or her duties just because she was a woman. God needed someone to be His mouthpiece, to be an instrument, and it did not matter to Him if it were male or female. "Thus saith the Lord," those four words were enough to prove to them that she was a prophetess. God, who is merciful, saw that Josiah sought Him and wanted to walk in His ways, so God said these judgments would come only after Josiah's death.
After the messenger had delivered God’s message to King Josiah, he had no doubt that God had spoken and began to make some necessary changes. He went to the temple with the leaders and read the Law to all the people of Jerusalem and Judah. All were convinced that God had spoken through Prophetess Huldah. A great revival like never before began among the people.
Both king and people, an entire nation, made a new covenant with God. Together they affirmed that they would serve the God of Israel. They were willing to obey God’s Law with their whole hearts. Even though the message to turn their hearts back to God was delivered by a woman.
The Passover feast was once again observed. It is wonderful to note that even in the Kingdom of Judah's departure from the Lord, God had a prophetess that from whose mouth wisdom and truth could be retried upon. God in His sovereignty chose a woman even when men prophets were available. Thus she has a permanent place in Old Testament religious history of those who led God’s people. My friend, God still speaks through His prophets and prophetesses today. The church cannot be perfected without them.
The Israelites had forgotten that God had liberated them in the past. They had also rejected the sacrifice that pointed them to the life of Christ. They had ceased celebrating the yearly feast instituted by God as a memorial their deliverance from Egypt. It had been many years since they had observed the Passover.
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  #3  
Old 09-18-2007, 12:00 PM
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It was God that chose to use Huldah, even though there were men prophets in her day. Thanks be to God that Huldah has a permanent place in the religious history of the Old Testament. She will always be remembered for bringing a revival to the Levitical priesthood (ministers) and what a revival they had.
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  #4  
Old 09-18-2007, 12:02 PM
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What human knew more about Jesus than Mary, his mother did? Without her, there could be no witness of the truth. Who besides her could tell about the appearance of Gabriel, the angel who spoke with her face to face?
The doctrine of the incarnation depends upon the words of Mary and a dream of Joseph. It is written that the disciples abandoned him while at Calvary and they all fled (Matthew 26:56), except for John who stayed a little longer and then took Mary away.
John could not tell us what he did not see. So the events found in Matthew, Mark and Luke were from the mouths of women (Matthew 27:56), among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s children (John 19:25). Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene. Of the seven phrases John mentioned, four of them were told by women (Luke 23, 34, 43; Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34; Luke 23:46).
In the light of these facts, we can see why the Lord Jesus blessed His women followers. They were ready to believe and to publish to the brethren the resurrection message. Augustine comments that these women were the first preachers of the resurrection of Christ. It’s unacceptable to believe the fact that our Lord would choose women to publish to the disciples the most important message of the gospel and then later put an embargo on their further publishing the good news.
There was a law given by God in the Bible. Two witnesses were needed to prove a fact (Deuteronomy 19:15; Matthew 18:16; John 8:17). John’s word was not enough; that is why each gospel states “the women of Galilee”. So the fact of Jesus’ resurrection is based almost entirely upon the words of women. Matthew 18:1-2: At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus saying, who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto Him, and set him in the midst of them. If you do not believe a woman can preach, then you should not preach about the crucifixion and the resurrection of Jesus.
It was the women who felt the earthquake and witnessed the things that followed. They saw that the stone had been rolled away and the tomb was empty. They heard the angel’s voice. The unsealed grave was left as a testimony to the fact the Jesus has risen.
What we know about the earthquake, the appearance of the angel, the stone being rolled away, guards falling as dead men, the announcement that He had risen, we know because Matthew told us in his gospel how the tomb was witnessed by the two women both called Mary.
Mark tells us about the women seeing two men (angels). Luke speaks of the clothes the angel was wearing. The guards fell as dead men, yet these Gospel authors were not eyewitnesses. Not even Peter or John did see the angels. Even if they did, they do not serve as witnesses because the Bible only mentions the words of the women. It was simply the testimonies of two women.
The earthquake did not come and neither did the angels appear until both Marys were there to witness it. The words of the women are the central theme of the gospel HE AROSE! That is the most important message, the message that makes our religion different from all the other religions on earth.
The disciples did not believe the words of the women. (Mark 16:9-11, Luke 24:22-27), no of course not! It is not strange that they did not believe; they were accustomed to the Talmud teaching.
Notice Jesus gave the women that followed him one of the greatest privileges in connection with the resurrection:

1. They saw where he was laid.
2. They saw the tomb being closed.
3. They saw the stone being rolled away.
4. They saw the guards fall as dead men.

When Jesus said you are a witness of these things, He could not have been talking to Peter, James, or John because they did not see it. It had to be the women He was talking to because they had seen (Acts 1:8; 1:14-15; Acts 2:16-18).

Now the women also could fulfill Isaiah 40: 9: O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!

The poet reminds us about Mary Magdalene:

Not she with treacherous kiss her master stung.
Not she denied Him with unfaithful tongue.
She, when Apostles fled, could dangers brave.
Last at the cross, and earliest at the grave...
Author Unknown

Faithful, loving Mary was the first one to see Him after His resurrection
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  #5  
Old 09-18-2007, 12:08 PM
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Acts 21:9: And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy. Here we have a quartet of gospel women, who while living out their lives among heathen neighbors continued doing God’s will.
Notice these “girls” were in the company of Paul who said in 1 Corinthians 14:34,35: “women keep silence in the church.” Along with their father Philip, they were prophetesses. Do you think Paul said girls, don’t prophecy; it is not permitted for you to speak? Of course not!
To prophesy is to preach according to Webster (National Dictionary of English Language P. F. Collier & Son, New York 1937). Prophetess “female preacher” (Young’s Analytical Concordance pg. 781).
Some are quick to say they prophesied only in homes, and not in church, but Ephesians 4:12 says, “Even so ye, for as much as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.”



so it matters not if it is a housemeeting or a building WE are the church...
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  #6  
Old 09-18-2007, 12:10 PM
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In Romans 16:1-16 we find a list of prominent people, one out of three who were women. Over all, the Epistles and the book of Acts suggest that New Testament categories of leadership were far more diverse, far more complete, and far more loosely defined than today. Women and men alike taught, presided over house churches, spoke as prophets and teachers, served as deacons and worked as missionaries and discipled new converts to establish new believers in the new churches.
Women appear in the record wherever Christianity spread. Texts that mention women of Judea begin with the story of Pentecost. It records the outpouring of the Holy Ghost on men and women alike (Acts 1-2).
Paul speaks of Mary as working hard (bestowed much labor) among the Romans. The verb is used elsewhere by the Apostle to describe ministerial labor in the gospel. In Romans 16:12, it is applied to another woman Persis who has "labored much in the Lord". In I Corinthians 15:10 it capsizes apostolic labors. I Thessalonians 5:12 teaches respect for “those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord...” Their prepositional phrase translated "among you" is rendered "over you" in Galatians 4:11 in the RSV. It is possible that Mary had some overseeing responsibility in her ministry.
The text goes on to speak of Mary of Jerusalem (Acts 12:12). There is no mention of her husband, so it is safe to assume she pastored the church that met at her house. An order of widows is found in Acts 6:1-3, 1 Timothy 5:3-16. Paul designates Mary as working hard among the Romans. The verb is used in other scriptures by Paul to describe ministerial labor in the gospel.
Dorcas was a woman disciple (Acts 9:36-4). Most people think that the word disciple means a man. Disciple is an inclusive term or title and refers to all women or men seeking to follow God’s will and purpose for their lives.
In the cities of Asia Minor prominent women include Nymphas of Colossae, presided over a house church (Colossians 4:15) The Greek Church has listed Nymphas on the Greek Calendar, recognizing her as a holy Apostle Romans 16:7 “men of note,” men is omitted in the Greek, “ectshomic.”
Read according to Greek, "they are of note" the word "men" is inserted by the translators. From Rome Claudia sends greeting to Timothy (2 Timothy 4:20-21).
Junia was an apostolic woman. No male form of the name "Junia" existed in the Hellenistic world. The church father Chrysostom wrote and indeed to be Apostles at all is a great thing. But to be even amongst these of note, just consider what a great encomium this is. But they were of note owing to their works, to their achievements. Oh how great is the devotion of this woman that she should be even counted worthy of the appellation of apostle."

Tryphena, Tryphosa and dear Persis, the mother of Rufus (Romans 16:12). Persis who has worked hard in the Lord, First Corinthians 15:10 points out is named among the apostolic laborers. First Thessalonians 5:12 calls upon the church to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord. “Among you” is a prepositional phrase which is rendered over you in Galatians 4:11 RSV (repeat for Mary).
The account of the risen Jesus as discussed earlier reveal that woman could fulfill the requirements for the role of apostle. They have a direct confrontation with the risen Jesus and they receive a commission from Him to preach the gospel.

Julia and the sister of Nereus, Romans 16:11-16.

Apphea of Colossae, who hosts a house church with her husband Philemon (Colossians 4:9 and Philippians 1:2).

Priscilla, a mobile missionary who with her husband Aquilla works mainly in Ephesus (Acts 18:19-20; 1 Corinthians 16:19; Romans 16:3-5; 2 Timothy 4:19). They had a church in their home in Ephesus at two different times, John in 337 A. D. wrote that Priscilla was eloquent and proper and stated that her husband accompanied her.

In the cities of Macedonia and Greece, we read about Lydia.

Eudora and Syntyche of Philippe serve as co-workers with Paul in the gospel (Philippians 4:2-3).

Cited in Willion Sandy & Arthur Headlan, The Epistle to the Romans (Eldenbergh T & T Clark, 1902, p. 423). They have labored side by side with me (or fought beside me) in the gospel (Philippians 4:3). The compound verb “labored side by side” denotes unity in sharing a common task. Their women did not serve, under Paul or behind Paul or below Paul. They served beside Paul. They were equal with him in a common ministry. Notice In the Gospel, shows us a clear understanding they were ministers. Chloe speaks for some members of the church of Corinth. (1 Corinthians 1:11).

Phoebe is a deacon of the church of Cenchreas (Romans 16:1-2).

There is Typhaena and Tryphose who were probably sisters in Romans 16:12). They along with Persis are designated as workers in the Lord as with Mary in Romans 16:6; these women all engaged in ministerial activity. The word worker suggests more a function than office.
In First Thessalonians 5:12, Paul commands the church to give respect and recognition to the laborers and co-workers who are "over you in the Lord." In other places Paul uses these identical descriptive phrases to refer to his female colleagues. Ephesians 2:6 teaches that believers raised with Christ are seated with Him (sharing His rule) in the heavenly places and Romans 8:17calls us "fellow heirs with Christ". If it is Christ that dominates our vision, we will not be preoccupied with male or female or gender discrepancies for both will reign with Him.
Just from the examples in this chapter alone, we find women are called of God to preach, to teach, to pastor, and to handle the administration of the church.
Women are disciples of Christ. They are sisters in the Lord and they serve God on equal parallel line with their brothers. The streamline interpretation of the fall, blames women for sin coming into the world, conflicts with Paul’s teaching in Romans and First Corinthians. He strongly stressed that sin came into the world through Adam not the woman.
In the Apostle’s final greeting (Romans 16), he endorses and salutes both men and women who share in the ministry of the gospel in the church and in the world.
Long before Jesus’ time, discrimination of the women began during the Babylonian captivity or shortly afterward when the Jews returned from the dispersion under Persian King, Cyrus. The decline of women in Israel was always due to the invasion of heathen influence.
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  #7  
Old 09-18-2007, 12:15 PM
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It makes no difference to God whom we teach. Women counseled and taught men both in the New and Old Testament (Judges 4:5,2 Kings 22; Acts 18). Whatever curse was put upon mankind was destroyed through redemption, and no curse was put upon a woman concerning preaching.
Someone justifying his belief that men only could preach the gospel, said that preachers under the law of circumcision were all men. But remember baptism is for both men and women. What circumcision once represented under the Law, baptism now represents for us (both male and female) today (Revelation 1:6 Luke 20:35).
The difference in the priesthood and the ministry is that a person had to be born into the priesthood. Today, we are not born into the ministry but called into the ministry. The only priest in the Old Testament that was "called" was Aaron (Hebrew 5:4). The Levitical priesthood was abolished at Calvary.
Others have said He chose men only for disciples,. Well, they were Jews! Would that same reasoning mean that only Jewish men could be preachers? Of course not! O consistency thou art a jewel! He chose Jacob (younger), not Esau. He chose Moses instead of Aaron. He chose David instead of his brothers, and the list goes on. God does not work by man’s ideas, but He chooses whom He will. God had no trouble finding and using a donkey (female) to rebuke Balaam.
God knows how to humble the proud, and lift up the abased. He used a little boy’s lunch and that story is found in all four gospels. He knows how to use the widow’s two mites. And I’m sure He knows how to use redeemed women to proclaim His Word.
In His great foreknowledge, it is God that chooses who He wants to use. With or without man’s approval, God has and is using His spirit filled women today. They perform tasks which many say, "That’s not a woman’s place!" Just where is a woman’s place?
Some say the woman’s place is in the home. What if she can’t bear children and have the privilege to build a home? What if she is not married? Does she just sit around in a house and do nothing. Does she just live as a hermit of society? Just where is a woman’s place? This is God’s choosing. He chooses her place not another human being.
We can not act as the counselors of God. Some have tried to, but He must laugh at human reasoning. His own Word says, His ways are past finding out.

Some have said, Sis. Alvear, in synagogue services, women were not allowed to sit with the men. Yes, I know that; but when Christianity came there was no separation and no barriers. All became one in Christ Jesus (I Corinthians 7:19; Galatians 3:28; I Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 5:7-8).
It was the Pharisees and Sadducees that believed the woman to be inferior. Jesus was different. He did not hesitate to call a woman daughter of Abraham (Luke 13:16).
Jesus broke every tradition, crossed the boundary line and astonished them with His doctrine. Jesus does not condone one human being superior to another. He does not make slaves. He makes those who are enslaved, free!
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  #8  
Old 09-18-2007, 12:21 PM
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It would be nice if every one had the spirit of Ruth that said, "Let me now go to the fields and glean." My, what a golden spirit to possess amidst the clashing gods and national boundary lines. Her sickle is rusty, but the golden spirit of Ruth still prevails today among many of God’s handmaidens who take their call of God seriously. She must preach glad tidings regardless of the cost. Ruth is long gone but her notable qualities live on.
If the Lord shows you a need, it is usually His way of saying to do something about it. Dorcas, the disciple, saw a need. Deborah saw a people that needed to be led. Anna, long waited to proclaim the Messiah. Huldah saw a need to interpret God’s laws. Miriam saw a need to play the tambourine and lead a dance unto the Lord. Many of these women received messages from God and relayed them to the people. Such a responsible position represents a unique closeness to God.
Many women were God’s voice for that place and time. They were used mightily in the time of need. What if there had been no Deborah to rise against the enemy? What if Deborah’s voice had been silenced? What if Anna had not proclaimed the Messiah or what if Huldah had left the high priest, kings, and the people without the interpretation of God’s Word? You may say God would have raised up someone else. I agree with you in part, but what destiny would they have had if they did not obeyed the Word of God? I'll tell you the answer; they would have been lost as well anyone who does not obey God.
In the face of solemn reality, we must be careful not to try to laugh off or brush off the call of God on someone else’s life. If it were of God, time and eternity will reveal it.
Much has been said about women "learning in silence," "and not usurping authority", etc. But it has been forgotten that women labored in the gospel?
Some have tried to justify men preachers only, because the man is the head of the home. I too, believe the husband is the head of the home, but that doesn’t mean God can’t use a woman in the church.
God used Deborah, Priscilla, Huldah, and others that their husbands, were still the heads of their homes. But being a wife did not cause God not to use them. God giving a woman a message to preach does not change the fact that man is the head of the home. God would give her nothing that would be contrary to His Word (Galatians 1:1-8). Neither would God give man something against His Word.
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  #9  
Old 09-18-2007, 12:22 PM
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God spoke to Samson´s mothers first, not his father. Would you say God was wrong? God will use whomever He will to deliver a prophetic message, just as He will use whomever He will to preach any type message.
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  #10  
Old 09-18-2007, 12:23 PM
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Someone justifying his belief that men only could preach the gospel, said that preachers under the law of circumcision were all men. But remember baptism is for both men and women. What circumcision once represented under the Law, baptism now represents for us (both male and female) today (Revelation 1:6 Luke 20:35).

The difference in the priesthood and the ministry is that a person had to be born into the priesthood. Today, we are not born into the ministry but called into the ministry. The only priest in the Old Testament that was "called" was Aaron (Hebrew 5:4). The Levitical priesthood was abolished at Calvary.

Others have said He chose men only for disciples,. Well, they were Jews! Would that same reasoning mean that only Jewish men could be preachers? Of course not! O consistency thou art a jewel! He chose Jacob (younger), not Esau. He chose Moses instead of Aaron. He chose David instead of his brothers, and the list goes on. God does not work by man’s ideas, but He chooses whom He will. God had no trouble finding and using a donkey (female) to rebuke Balaam.

God knows how to humble the proud, and lift up the abased. He used a little boy’s lunch and that story is found in all four gospels. He knows how to use the widow’s two mites. And I’m sure He knows how to use redeemed women to proclaim His Word.

In His great foreknowledge, it is God that chooses who He wants to use. With or without man’s approval, God has and is using His spirit filled women today. They perform tasks which many say, "That’s not a woman’s place!" Just where is a woman’s place?

Some say the woman’s place is in the home. What if she can’t bear children and have the privilege to build a home? What if she is not married? Does she just sit around in a house and do nothing. Does she just live as a hermit of society? Just where is a woman’s place? This is God’s choosing. He chooses her place not another human being.

We can not act as the counselors of God. Some have tried to, but He must laugh at human reasoning. His own Word says, His ways are past finding out.

Some have said, Sis. Alvear, in synagogue services, women were not allowed to sit with the men. Yes, I know that; but when Christianity came there was no separation and no barriers. All became one in Christ Jesus (I Corinthians 7:19; Galatians 3:28; I Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 5:7-8).

It was the Pharisees and Sadducees that believed the woman to be inferior. Jesus was different. He did not hesitate to call a woman daughter of Abraham (Luke 13:16).

Jesus broke every tradition, crossed the boundary line and astonished them with His doctrine. Jesus does not condone one human being superior to another. He does not make slaves. He makes those who are enslaved, free!

I remember some years ago in a church in Alabama, the preacher got up and said, "Well, we have Sis. Janice with us tonight. She claims to be a woman preacher, but since we don’t believe in women preachers, we’ll ask her to come up here and prophesy to us." I just walked to the pulpit and began to tell some of the great things the Lord was doing in Brazil. Perhaps, he thought to hurt and embarrass me, no doubt. I really did not feel either hurt or embarrassed. I felt sorry for his spiritual poverty and elevated ego and his lack of support of God’s ministers.

But the word of God still reads, "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm." This preacher had more than just guile in his mouth, he had lust burning in his heart. It wasn’t long till that preacher ran off with a woman who played the piano. A church and two homes were destroyed. His interests were not coming to the help of the Lord. He was more interested in building up his own sinful ego in front of a crowd. He risked everything by trying to cut down God’s anointed but ended up bringing a reproach upon the name of Christ.

I am not saying that every one who doesn’t believe in women preachers has a heart of an adulterer. God forbid! But I am saying there must be something, somewhere wrong when anyone would try to close the mouth of one of God’s messengers. ONE MAY NOT ENDORSE WOMEN PREACHERS, BUT WOE TO THOSE WHO CONDEMN THEM!

Jude admonished us, everyone, male and female to pull them out of the fire. How can you pull someone out of hell’s fire if you don’t preach Jesus? Speaking God’s word to the hearer as it is mixed with faith will pull anyone out.
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