The Death Penalty

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

I think the church is different than civil government. Roman government was nothing close to a democracy. The church was powerless to halt any execution, and in fact willingly laid their own lives on the line because of their beliefs.

Was the Roman government God-ordained? Was Paul, aka Saul, justified in his evil treatment of Christians? Were the Christians worthy of death simply because an evil government chose to execute them?

Nowhere in the NT does the church assert a right to kill those who are evil. No, the church chose a different method of dealing with the wicked - they converted them.

Maybe instead of trying to enforce morality through legislation, we should actually live godly, mercifully, and be witnesses to the godless.

Killing people seals their eternal damnation.

Great post... I especially agree with the bolded portion.

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

I think the church is different than civil government. Roman government was nothing close to a democracy. The church was powerless to halt any execution, and in fact willingly laid their own lives on the line because of their beliefs.

Was the Roman government God-ordained? Was Paul, aka Saul, justified in his evil treatment of Christians? Were the Christians worthy of death simply because an evil government chose to execute them?

Nowhere in the NT does the church assert a right to kill those who are evil. No, the church chose a different method of dealing with the wicked - they converted them.

Maybe instead of trying to enforce morality through legislation, we should actually live godly, mercifully, and be witnesses to the godless.

Killing people seals their eternal damnation.

Bump for RevDWW

[RevDWW]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

I think the church is different than civil government. Roman government was nothing close to a democracy. The church was powerless to halt any execution, and in fact willingly laid their own lives on the line because of their beliefs..

I guess I didn't think we were discussing church government.

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Was the Roman government God-ordained? Was Paul, aka Saul, justified in his evil treatment of Christians? Were the Christians worthy of death simply because an evil government chose to execute them?..

If it wasn't then is Romans 13 inaccurate? Is God sovereign and in control? Does He allow bad things to happen on earth as a part of His eternal plan?

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Nowhere in the NT does the church assert a right to kill those who are evil. No, the church chose a different method of dealing with the wicked - they converted them.

I was assuming we were talking human government not the Church. Of course our job as the Church is to first try and convert. If I didn't believe that then I wouldn't be involved in prison ministry. I'm trying to reach guys before they go past the point of life and death in the justice system.

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Maybe instead of trying to enforce morality through legislation, we should actually live godly, mercifully, and be witnesses to the godless..

I think we agree that there is no "maybe" about it.

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Killing people seals their eternal damnation.

Wrong individual actions and decisions seal a persons eternal damnation.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Paul plainly states that God sets up Rulers as revengers to execute judgement on those that are evil. Was Paul going contradicting God?

Explain what you mean please. i don't clearly see the point that you are making with this post.

The Bible says in Romans 12:19 "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."

You recall the scriptures (as far as I can tell from your post) that reside in the very next chapter that say...

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

You then ask if Paul was contradicting God...

Could you explain the contradiction you see?

I assume this contradiction is with someones interpretation etc... not trying to be problematic... I just currently do not see clearly what you are saying.

Thanks.

[RevDWW]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Explain what you mean please. i don't clearly see the point that you are making with this post.

The Bible says in Romans 12:19 "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."

You recall the scriptures (as far as I can tell from your post) that reside in the very next chapter that say...

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

You then ask if Paul was contradicting God...

Could you explain the contradiction you see?

I assume this contradiction is with someones interpretation etc... not trying to be problematic... I just currently do not see clearly what you are saying.

Thanks.

I was trying to contrast Bennys post on "vengance is mine sayth the Lord" to what Paul wrote in Romans 13 where God appoints rulers to bear the sword as a revenger to bring wrath on evil doers.

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I think that using deadly force as self defense to be against the NT teachings so I would be also against having the state or government kill anyone for me. Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord, so if that were the case it would be up to God to exact judgement. God used Gentile armies to bring judgement against His enemies, so would you say that God uses a non-Christian group to carry out His judgements? The Jews used political pull to cause Pontius Pilate to put to death Jesus after Pontius Pilate was convinced that Jesus was innocent. Death penalty can also be used to kill the innocent when used by a corrupt system.

Evangalist, you say let the Lord carry out the vengeance. Do you think that God will not use a man to do that for him? It sounds somewhat silly to say that He will use a man to carry out his punishment against man, but if God will use man as a tool to preach the gospel and reach out with mercy, I dare say that God is inclined to do the same with Judgement. JMO.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman

Evangalist, you say let the Lord carry out the vengeance. Do you think that God will not use a man to do that for him? It sounds somewhat silly to say that He will use a man to carry out his punishment against man, but if God will use man as a tool to preach the gospel and reach out with mercy, I dare say that God is inclined to do the same with Judgement. JMO.

I appreciate your opinion, but isn't that what I said? I made the statement that God used pagan armies to punish His enemies, and this is one way He can carry out His judgement. Still I want to say that we as Christians should never want to see anyone put to death, but always seeking mercy that the soul would be converted. If the country we live in has the penalty of death to those who break laws then all we can do is pray for the mercy of those who are condemned. As for me and my house we will not advocate the putting to death of any human being. Those who commit crimes are all handed over to the mercy and judgement of God.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[RevDWW]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I appreciate your opinion, but isn't that what I said? I made the statement that God used pagan armies to punish His enemies, and this is one way He can carry out His judgement. Still I want to say that we as Christians should never want to see anyone put to death, but always seeking mercy that the soul would be converted. If the country we live in has the penalty of death to those who break laws then all we can do is pray for the mercy of those who are condemned. As for me and my house we will not advocate the putting to death of any human being. Those who commit crimes are all handed over to the mercy and judgement of God.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

Is it in the realm of possibility that God would use being convicted and sentence to death as a means to bring some lost soul face to face with the reality that they do indeed need Jesus?

Could being put to death after obeying the gospel be a means to a sure salvation because they never got the chance to go back to their old ways?

Are we really showing mercy by letting them go free, when they might meet with death by going back to the old life style before they had a repented?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Is it in the realm of possibility that God would use being convicted and sentence to death as a means to bring some lost soul face to face with the reality that they do indeed need Jesus?

Could being put to death after obeying the gospel be a means to a sure salvation because they never got the chance to go back to their old ways?

Are we really showing mercy by letting them go free, when they might meet with death by going back to the old life style before they had a repented?

My Brother I have a hard time with anyone who hurts children, and in my thinking that is a crime that eclipses any other, but all sin is sin to the Lord.
Children cannot choose who they have as parents and child abuse is widespread in this country. I'm devoted to a life of non-violence and must adhere to the Biblical teaching. All who are worthy of death are worthy to be saved from the penalty of eternal death.

There was a woman who axed murdered a woman who was at the wrong place at the wrong time all because her and her boyfriend owned a motorcycle that the axe-murdering woman and her boyfriend wanted. The two killers killed the two people in cold blood. The woman with the axe got sentenced to death row, and she pleaded for an appeal, and she had said that she became a reborn denominational Christian, and therefore she was rehabilitated from her past life of being a blood thirsty killer.

My opinion was this, if GOD wanted to save her from the death penalty He would have that happen, but if He did not she should be happy to go to the electric chair and die and go on to be with the Lord.

I believe that Jail ministry should continue and the Lord bless all the men and women of the Apostolic Faith who preach in prisons across the world.
Every soul they save is another soul who is freed spiritually. I would rather see individuals repent and live for God behind bars than have to be put to death.


In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com