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Old 04-24-2010, 08:52 AM
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Re: PAW Is Crumbling!!!Bishop Noel Jones is leavin

Quote:
Originally Posted by apostolicbaby View Post
you are just rude person just because u don't black people you want the PAW to say good riddance. what about upci, gateway and all other Apostolic organizations it started with PAW and it is going to end with PAW. there is no such thing as the Trinty there is only ONE GOD & HE'S NAME IS JESSSUSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh I see the race card gets played even on religious forums! So I am curious. If a black person says anything critical about a predominantly white Pentecostal org. is he a racist?

Chill out. If you are not adult enough to discuss people and org.'s don't post here. You sound just like those who says to anybody that criticizes any policy of the Obama administration "you are just racist". Absurd!

If you had actually read (or perhaps comprehended) Elder Epley's post you would have seen he revered the PAW of old and was only lamenting that it has changed doctrinally over the years.
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"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.

"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.

"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."

Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
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  #2  
Old 10-27-2007, 09:39 PM
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Monkeyman Monkeyman is offline
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Submitted the following to The Chicago Defender newspaper. I have no
idea if they will publish an edited version, as is, or not at all.

Welcome your reactions.

Regards,

Marlon Millner
--------------------


Open Letter to Bishop Arthur Brazier

Oct. 18, 2007





To Bishop Arthur Brazier,



I was deeply saddened to read in a Chicago Defender article on Oct. 11,
"Bishop Brazier Leaves PAW," that you intend to end your more than 50
years of fellowship with the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World.



To the average reader of The Defender, the internal theological
squabbles of any religious group remain marginal to why people seek
faith in the first place or Christian faith in particular and
Pentecostal faith specifically. It is because we live in what many
scholars rightly call a post-denominational age that I write you openly,
and hope to share with readers the broader loss to Pentecostal
organizations like PAW, when churches like Apostolic Church of God pull
out.



As a third-generation Apostolic Pentecostal, who has served and worked
in many Christian faith communities (Baptist, Church of God in Christ
and Anglican), I felt a calling in my freshman year at Morehouse College
in Atlanta to not only experience Pentecostalism, but to study it as
well. And PAW was central to both of those pursuits.



During my freshman year, though I had been raised the son and grandson
of Apostolic Pentecostal preachers, it was only after attending the PAW
Mid-Winter convention in Atlanta that I experienced the hallmark of
Pentecostalism -- the baptism in the Holy Spirit. But another unusual
event occurred that year.



During my time in the college library, I started to search for every
book in the library that had something to do with Pentecostalism. It was
then I learned of William Joseph Seymour -- the pioneer and African
American leader of the Azusa Street Revival, from which Pentecostalism
became popular. I learned about Garfield T. Haywood, the first African
American leader of PAW, which from its beginnings was interracial.



I also discovered an obscure book, published in 1969 by William Eerdmans
Press called Black Self Determination. That book in the library was by
you. I was taken aback that a Pentecostal preacher and an Apostolic
Pentecostal preacher in particular had so powerfully addressed the
social condition of African Americans during the height of the modern
Civil Rights Movement. My interest only deepened when -- though from
North Carolina -- I got a summer job after my freshman year at The
Chicago Tribune -- working in the editorial library. I began to pour
over old newspaper article clip files on you. Your work with Martin
Luther King, Jr. Your outspoken and controversial outreach to and work
with gangs in Chicago, such as the Black Stone Rangers. Your
collaboration with the Industrial Areas Foundation to create what is now
known as The Woodlawn Organization.



You were no typical or ordinary black preacher or Apostolic Pentecostal.
However, you were in a sphere of several prominent black Apostolic
Pentecostals -- like Robert McMurray in Los Angeles, Robert Lawson in
New York and Smallwood Williams in Washington, DC, who pastored large
Apostolic Pentecostal churches, and engaged across Christian and other
social lines to work for positive change, peace and justice in
communities of color, and around the world.



However, like them, your political and social work often outstripped
your theological reflection. Your discovery of certain ideas from the
Protestant Reformation about the salvation status of a believer were new
for many in Apostolic Pentecostal circles, but not nearly as progressive
and forward-thinking as your work for community transformation.

You would not remember this, but I recall with disappointment, when I
reached out to you by letter, as an eager Apostolic Pentecostal trying
to blend the spiritual and critical in college and you referred me to
materials from Moody Bible Institute. That was a far cry from the
McCormick Theological Seminary, or the University of Chicago Divinity
School -- places I would visit a few years later. And it certainly could
not be further from The Divinity School at Harvard University, where I
would earn a master of divinity years later.



Many were shocked to learn that I as an Apostolic Pentecostal would
attend Harvard for theological studies. Aren't they liberal? They don't
even believe in Jesus or Christianity there, right? Harvard certainly is
religiously liberal and plural. However, Harvard Divinity School was the
same place that in 1984 held the only scholarly conference on Apostolic
Pentecostalism ever held at a major university in North America. I have
the papers from that conference.



My experiences in following your ministry and the others I have listed
here led me to believe that being progressive is far more than
interacting with non-Apostolic Pentecostal Christians, or inviting them
to preach in a denomination's annual meeting.



Bishop Brazier, the Church of God in Christ invited Robert Lawson to
address its annual meeting in 1945, because Lawson and Charles Mason
were personal friends. But they clearly did not agree on issues of
doctrine. And who can say the last time an Apostolic Pentecostal --
since then, has ever preached in Memphis, the headquarters city of
COGIC?



Consider your colleague in Chicago, Rev. Dr. Stephen Thurston. He may
have all types of preachers come to New Covenant Missionary Baptist
Church and preach, but when the annual session of the National Baptist
Convention of America takes place, the preachers reflect the
denomination and rightly so.

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  #3  
Old 10-27-2007, 09:41 PM
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Monkeyman Monkeyman is offline
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The problem with a post-denominational age, and a mega-ministry,
televangelism model is that national and international gatherings of
like-minded people, who share a common history, faith and practice, are
set-aside for commercialization of Christianity, which leads to
personality-driven, popularity focused events, where there are no
unifying ideas, just market-driven forces.

It is this context that has created a crisis of meaning for PAW, which
causes you to say open the convention pulpit up, and for others to say
keep it entirely closed.



This post-denominational age, which has given birth to "full gospel"
Baptists, and "neo-Pentecostal" African Methodist Episcopalians, and
even "charismatic" Anglicans and Catholics, is a good thing, if we focus
on the broad dimensions of the Pentecostal experience, and how it always
undermines our social and political constructions of the church -- as
was the case in the book of Acts in the Bible. This is also the case in
Chicago, if you believe religious historian and Princeton professor
Wallace Best, who in his book Passionately Human, No Less Divine;
Religion and Culture in Black Chicago from 1915 to 1952, argues for the
"pentecostalization" of churches in the Windy City through the growth of
gospel music, and the migration of rural black Christianity into an
urban context.



However, the movement of the Spirit is not market-driven spirituality,
which is highly ahistorical, anti-critical, non-reflective and
disparaging of tradition. Rather than renewing a movement, these market
forces can cause schism, just as the "new issue" of Jesus name baptism
did in 1914, eight years after Azusa Street.



Apostolic Pentecostals were birthed in an attempt to radically reform
and renew the church, not to reject it.



While I know the struggle has been long and hard to be different in PAW,
you perhaps have not been different enough, in that you would now go the
way of being independent, rather than still be a force of change to be
reckoned with, a father and mentor of a new generation of ministry, and
someone programmatically instituting progressive Apostolic
Pentecostalism theologically, politically and socially in the context of
your lifelong denomination.



If Episcopalians have not split over blessing same-sex unions, and
ordaining gay bishops (though some have left), why should you leave and
PAW possibly split along the lines of those who want to rightly
celebrate Apostolic Pentecostal and PAW identity and those who rightly
want to be ecumenical, interdenominational and intentionally inclusive?



Leaving really means you can no longer mentor a new generation of
leadership in the denomination. Like so many African American leaders,
you become a lone ranger, a religious Don Quijote, with a mission
limited to one. People gather around you because of who you are, rather
than the program, the mission, the purpose you could possibly represent.



I actually think everyone in PAW could probably use more sophisticated
and critical theological education, even of an Evangelical or
Pentecostal variety. Pentecostals don't just make good music or preach
on television today. They have also created accredited schools, created
academic societies and written theological books and journals of the
highest scholarly order, and I'm not just talking about the latest
material from United Pentecostal Church scholar David Bernard. We can
do better than that.



I think you and PAW would do well to consider the points Bishop Morris
Golder said the denomination needed to reflect on, when in 1973 he
published the history of the organization. He then said the organization
needed to study broader Christian theology and history. But Golder was
trained in religion with a graduate degree from a major university. He
was not just socially and politically conscious. He was also
theologically cosmopolitan.



Being theologically cosmopolitan is not inviting Baptist or COGIC
preachers to the PAW convention. It is what Bishop Smallwood Williams
had in mind when in his 1981 autobiography, This is My Story; a
Significant Life Struggle, he wrote, "I made a lot of Pentecostals
uncomfortable. I never purposely set out to be unpleasant, but my
emphasis on pragmatic preaching was leading me to get involved in areas
where few in my church had ventured. Under my leadership in the late
fifties and sixties … members of Bibleway were getting involved in
places that didn't make us particularly popular with some Pentecostals
-- Christian unity and cooperation … I had the ability … to see
beyond denominational differences and religious prejudices to apply
Pentecostal theology to practical areas of living. That gift of mine
wasn't particularly appreciated. No doubt many Pentecostals, like many
Christians in many other denominations, were threatened when they took a
step outside their own door. This is true to this day, despite all the
talk of the ecumenical movement."



Being theologically cosmopolitan is the work you have done with The
Woodlawn Organization and the partnership PAW has forged with World
Vision to meet human needs in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina in New
Orleans. Being theologically cosmopolitan is finding progressive and
prophetic reasons for partnership and fellowship with those with whom
you might doctrinally disagree in the hopes of building bridges and
better representing the kingdom of God.



PAW, despite the theological exclusivism and sectarianism of some, has
many bridge-building elements of its history, upon which you and others
should be building. The legacy of radical reformation in Christian
doctrine and practice is worth emulating, and not merely celebrating as
completed practice of restoration. The heritage of affirming and
ordaining women in ministry and to the pastorate should be celebrated
and expanded. The history of interracial fellowship in a hostile, racist
society, should be retained and renewed for a multicultural America,
where others like Hispanics are the new face of ethnic America.



The way in which African American Apostolic Pentecostal leaders were
well-read (though not formally trained), politically engaged, interested
in Africa, and conversant in the issues of the day is nothing more than
a firm foundation upon which everyone in PAW could build.



Perhaps you have tried to affirm and expand all of these things in PAW
down through the years, and you simply got tired, frustrated and fed up.
Nevertheless, I am disappointed.



What PAW needs is not a market-driven, personality-focused national
meeting with celebrity preachers (both in and outside of PAW) to draw
people, it needs new and renewed vision and focus on its own identity
and purpose, an identity and purpose around which a new generation of
Apostolic Pentecostals can gather and celebrate. Both sides of this
petty, useless conflict need to be challenged about how to build unity
without uniformity.



It is still Jesus' prayer that we be one. And we are stilled called to
build up people for works of service (and that should be our focus),
because in such building, we shall come into the unity of the faith.
(Eph. 4:13)



Sincerely,



Rev. Marlon Millner



Rev. Marlon Millner is a third-generation Apostolic Pentecostal, who is
ordained or licensed in both Pentecostal and Baptist traditions. He is a
co-founder of the Pentecostal Charismatic Peace Fellowship
(www.pcpf.org) and lives outside of Philadelphia, PA. He attended his
first PAW convention when he was 16 years old.
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  #4  
Old 11-11-2007, 10:05 AM
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Adino Adino is offline
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Rev. Millner,

Thank you for sharing your letter. I find the whole matter of great interest. Maybe you can help me better understand the current atmosphere within the PAW concerning soteriological issues.

I read from Bishop Brazier's church website the following statement:
"If you are to be truly saved, you must trust the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him into your heart as Savior and Lord. This is what it means to be born again."
I found the Chicago Defender article "Bishop Brazier Leaves PAW" and read that eternal security was one of the items of contention between Brazier and others in the PAW. Without knowing much about Rev. Brazier, one can see tendencies toward the position of justification by faith alone in his words.

Having only been introduced to Rev. Brazier through this forum, but having the experience of periodic contact with members of the PAW here in Michigan, I am left to wonder, if Rev. Brazier was to remain in the PAW, whether he could be a force to help the organization abandon the water/spirit doctrine of the new birth.

It is of great interest to me to learn whether or not the PAW is leaning toward a return to the position of justification by faith alone after having abandoned this view for the water/spirit doctrine under the guidance of G.T. Haywood.

Is it of your opinion that a good many within the PAW agree with Bishop Brazier's new birth position or is the water/spirit position still so dominant within the organization that he has already determined continued unity a futile effort. I realize an attempt could be made for the two very different soteriological positions to exist side by side but the merger of the PAJC and the PCI back in 1945 has already proven this move to be a disaster.

Thanks in advance for your time and thoughts.

Shelby Smith
southeastern, Michigan
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  #5  
Old 11-13-2007, 03:40 PM
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TRFrance TRFrance is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adino View Post
I read from Bishop Brazier's church website the following statement:
"If you are to be truly saved, you must trust the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him into your heart as Savior and Lord. This is what it means to be born again."
Interesting. Today I went to his church website, and but maybe he's updated it since then. This is what I found:

WHAT WE BELEIVE

We believe that we should earnestly contend for God's standard of salvation. In the Word of God we find nothing short of a holy, Spirit-filled life with the signs following as on the day of Pentecost.

(Acts 2:4; 8:14-17; 10:44-48; 10:1-6, Romans 12:1-2, Hebrews 12:14).

The only ground upon which God will accept a sinner is repentance from the heart for the sins that he has committed. (Psalm 51:17, Luke 24:47)

We believe in water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, and the receiving of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38; 10:44-48; 19:1-6)
We believe in the Translation of Saints.
We believe in the Millennium.
We believe in the Lord's Supper.
We believe in Divine Healing.
We believe in a wholly sanctified life and final judgment.

To answer any questions you may have, we welcome you to our Bible classes. If this is not possible, you may call the church directly at 773.667.1500.


Its not as explicitly Apostolic the same way you'd expect to see it on a UPC website (necessity of Acts 2:38 for salvation, speaking in tongues, etc.), but it seems fairly Apostolic I guess, on the main points.
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  #6  
Old 11-17-2007, 08:10 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adino View Post
Rev. Millner,

Thank you for sharing your letter. I find the whole matter of great interest. Maybe you can help me better understand the current atmosphere within the PAW concerning soteriological issues.

I read from Bishop Brazier's church website the following statement:
"If you are to be truly saved, you must trust the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him into your heart as Savior and Lord. This is what it means to be born again."
I found the Chicago Defender article "Bishop Brazier Leaves PAW" and read that eternal security was one of the items of contention between Brazier and others in the PAW. Without knowing much about Rev. Brazier, one can see tendencies toward the position of justification by faith alone in his words.

Having only been introduced to Rev. Brazier through this forum, but having the experience of periodic contact with members of the PAW here in Michigan, I am left to wonder, if Rev. Brazier was to remain in the PAW, whether he could be a force to help the organization abandon the water/spirit doctrine of the new birth.

It is of great interest to me to learn whether or not the PAW is leaning toward a return to the position of justification by faith alone after having abandoned this view for the water/spirit doctrine under the guidance of G.T. Haywood.

Is it of your opinion that a good many within the PAW agree with Bishop Brazier's new birth position or is the water/spirit position still so dominant within the organization that he has already determined continued unity a futile effort. I realize an attempt could be made for the two very different soteriological positions to exist side by side but the merger of the PAJC and the PCI back in 1945 has already proven this move to be a disaster.

Thanks in advance for your time and thoughts.

Shelby Smith
southeastern, Michigan
Please post the link where you found that on his site?

We believe that we should earnestly contend for God's standard of salvation. In the Word of God we find nothing short of a holy, Spirit-filled life with the signs following as on the day of Pentecost.

(Acts 2:4; 8:14-17; 10:44-48; 10:1-6, Romans 12:1-2, Hebrews 12:14).

The only ground upon which God will accept a sinner is repentance from the heart for the sins that he has committed. (Psalm 51:17, Luke 24:47)

We believe in water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, and the receiving of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38; 10:44-48; 19:1-6)
We believe in the Translation of Saints.
We believe in the Millennium.
We believe in the Lord's Supper.
We believe in Divine Healing.
We believe in a wholly sanctified life and final judgment.
http://www.apostolicchurchofgod.net/aboutus_wha.html
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #7  
Old 11-17-2007, 09:01 PM
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Adino Adino is offline
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Quote:
Please post the link where you found that on his site
Here's the link on SALVATION.

The full article reads as follows:
Quote:
Dear Friend,

A great question faces you as you read this. It is not Have you joined a church? or Do you have religion? or Are you doing your very best? The great question is Have you been born again?

You may ask yourself What makes this question so important? The answer is simply this: Jesus said, "Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

If you are to be truly saved, you must trust the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him into your heart as Savior and Lord. This is what it means to be born again. The very moment you put your trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, He comes into your heart in the Person [do we want to say presence instead?] of the Holy Spirit, and eternal life begins.

Do not be misled into believing that the gift of the Holy Ghost was only for the apostles. God intended that all who believe in the Lord Jesus should receive that precious Gift. Hence, Peter said, "The promise is unto you and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call" (Acts 2:39).

There are many people trusting in good works. They often say, "I treat everybody right." Friend, salvation does not come through works; it comes only through the matchless grace of God. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any many should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

There are still others who say that water baptism is not necessary. Yet, on the day of Pentecost, those who were convicted by the preaching of Peter asked, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Peter answered, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:38).

The sacred Scriptures attest to the essential need of water baptism, and we must believe the Scriptures because it is through them that the way of salvation is made known.

My friend, you may belong to a church, or be a church officer. You may be religious, or you may be active in church work and going the best you can. You may be striving to live right and attain a high moral standard. Yet, if you have not been born of the water and of the Spirit, you cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5).

Jesus Christ came to seek and to save. So it is in the Spirit of Christ that we extend to an invitation to visit the Apostolic Church of God in our Sunday morning worship services or our Wednesday evening Bible class. It is our fervent wish to assist you in whatever way we can.
I have contacted his church asking for clarification. I will try again if I do not get a response soon.
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Old 11-17-2007, 09:34 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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There are still others who say that water baptism is not necessary. Yet, on the day of Pentecost, those who were convicted by the preaching of Peter asked, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Peter answered, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:38).

The sacred Scriptures attest to the essential need of water baptism, and we must believe the Scriptures because it is through them that the way of salvation is made known.
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #9  
Old 11-12-2007, 07:57 PM
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Adino Adino is offline
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Monkeyman?
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  #10  
Old 11-13-2007, 11:38 PM
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Thad Thad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adino View Post
Monkeyman?

Monkeyman is only on the forum Maybe once a week at most

If he posted today you might be waiting till thanksgiving LOL !
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