PAW Is Crumbling!!!Bishop Noel Jones is leaving too!

[Adino]

TRFrance,

Hello, good to meet you.

I just wrote Rev. Brazier's church an email this morning asking for clarification on a couple of issues. I pointed to that quote from a section they had on salvation. (Posted here again for convenience)

"If you are to be truly saved, you must trust the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him into your heart as Savior and Lord. This is what it means to be born again."

I asked them to clarify this statement with following statements on baptism in the same article which strongly suggested it [baptism] was necessary for salvation. I am hoping for a response.

I also wrote Rev. C. Ellis of Greater Grace Temple in Detroit (I live just north of Detroit) asking him if there was a trend for those in the PAW to return to the position of justification by faith alone abandoned by G.T. Haywood in the early years. He very clearly stated "I haven't heard anything about the PAW abandoning its position on Salvation."

All very interesting.

Are you aware of a trend within the PAW to return to the justification by faith alone position?

You mentioned concerns over Ellis. How has he veered from the mainstream?

[Thad]

Originally Posted by Adino

TRFrance,

Hello, good to meet you.

I just wrote Rev. Brazier's church an email this morning asking for clarification on a couple of issues. I pointed to that quote from a section they had on salvation. (Posted here again for convenience)

"If you are to be truly saved, you must trust the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him into your heart as Savior and Lord. This is what it means to be born again."

I asked them to clarify this statement with following statements on baptism in the same article which strongly suggested it [baptism] was necessary for salvation. I am hoping for a response.

I also wrote Rev. C. Ellis of Greater Grace Temple in Detroit (I live just north of Detroit) asking him if there was a trend for those in the PAW to return to the position of justification by faith alone abandoned by G.T. Haywood in the early years. He very clearly stated "I haven't heard anything about the PAW abandoning its position on Salvation."

All very interesting.

Are you aware of a trend within the PAW to return to the justification by faith alone position?

You mentioned concerns over Ellis. How has he veered from the mainstream?

there are quite a few in the PAW who are PCI - i'm sure they don't call it but you know what i mean. I believe that Braizer and Jones are. in fact, i think they also believe in Eternal security. Braizer has taught that for years.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Thad

there are quite a few in the PAW who are PCI - i'm sure they don't call it but you know what i mean. I believe that Braizer and Jones are. in fact, i think they also believe in Eternal security. Braizer has taught that for years.

Brazier gets into his position on eternal security on one of his available downloads on his church site. Pretty sure it was the message dealing with the perseverance of the saints.

He mentions his departure from the PAW and says that the subject of eternal security came up, I think, in an interview and was mentioned in the Chicago Defender but that this was not the reason he left the PAW. He does not say what that reason was.

I want to know how his site can say, "If you are to be truly saved, you must trust the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him into your heart as Savior and Lord. This is what it means to be born again" and then go on to say:

"The sacred Scriptures attest to the essential need of water baptism, and we must believe the Scriptures because it is through them that the way of salvation is made known."

This statement seems to connect being baptized with being saved.

What's this about Ellis "saying that a person can have the gift of tongues but not have the Holy Ghost"???

I'm tempted to write him about this one....

[Steve Epley]

Adino unless Braizer and Ellis has changed they believe the new birth of water & Spirit but Braizer for years has taught unconditional eternal security they(the PAW) was battling it out even in the 80's. Bishop McMurray (the church Noel Jones pastors) both taught his heresy. Bishops P. Scott, M. Golder, J. Tyson and others wrote articles against it. The PAW was too lax in dealing with this damnable heresy and it infected the movement.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Adino

What's this about Ellis "saying that a person can have the gift of tongues but not have the Holy Ghost"???

I'm tempted to write him about this one....

I remember maybe in 2000 or 2001 visiting his church website, looking to download some apostolic sermons. I don't remember the name of the sermon or even the topic any more, but I very clearly remember hearing him saying that.

I know, it was one of those "I cant believe my ears" moments. When I heard him say that I was not only disturbed but just plain baffled. Now, reflecting on it, its a bit sad to me that a supposedly "Apostolic" pastor could be so way off like that.

In a way, I'm hoping he simply misspoke, but honestly, I don't think he did at all. He meant what he said, although I cant figure what biblical grounds he would have for such a statement.
.......

Andino, if you do contact him to get clarification on that, I'd love to hear what he says.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Adino

TRFrance,

Hello, good to meet you.

I just wrote Rev. Brazier's church an email this morning asking for clarification on a couple of issues. I pointed to that quote from a section they had on salvation. (Posted here again for convenience)

"If you are to be truly saved, you must trust the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him into your heart as Savior and Lord. This is what it means to be born again."

I asked them to clarify this statement with following statements on baptism in the same article which strongly suggested it [baptism] was necessary for salvation. I am hoping for a response.

I also wrote Rev. C. Ellis of Greater Grace Temple in Detroit (I live just north of Detroit) asking him if there was a trend for those in the PAW to return to the position of justification by faith alone abandoned by G.T. Haywood in the early years. He very clearly stated "I haven't heard anything about the PAW abandoning its position on Salvation."

All very interesting.

Are you aware of a trend within the PAW to return to the justification by faith alone position?

You mentioned concerns over Ellis. How has he veered from the mainstream?

This is very interesting...

Originally Posted by Barb

This is very interesting...

Barb,

You are too nice... "interesting"... I usually find anything Adino writes as "odd" but I guess interesting would be appropriate.

J/K Adino a little

[Steve Epley]

I would think Braizer-Ellis-Jones would find some difficuties among their congregations if they changed on their veiw of salvation. They may change but it will be slow. Both McMurray & Ellis' father were strong doctrinal preachers when it came to Acts 2:38 and the Oneness of God. McMurray seemed to have some personal problems wherein the unconditional eternal security doctrine might have been convenient.

[ChicagoPastor]

Brazier is on TV every week in Chicago. And every show ends with them baptizing dozens of people in Jesus name....they're ALWAYS baptizing people. He preaches Acts 2:38 strong......Elder Epley is right, he also preaches eternal security.

[Adino]

How do you guys interpret this statement from Braizer's website?

"If you are to be truly saved, you must trust the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him into your heart as Savior and Lord. This is what it means to be born again."