Tulsa: A Description from a Coordinator of the Meeting

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Their Annual Summit is coming up later this month. We are all invited to "See What God Has Done In 15 Months."

He created cosmos in an instant with His Word. Apparently these folks feel like it took Him 15 months to split off a chunk of the UPC.

The venue only seats 2300. That's what they said they had last year. I'm having even more difficulty attributing this "work" to anything the Almighty has done in the last 15 months. Maybe they'll have something more for us in a few weeks.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

This post is sooooo funny in retrospect.

This makes me think of the Lee Stoneking thread...becauuuussseee...I think that leaders often underestimate the power of suggestion. They can make a suggestion to an audience, veiled, implied or outright--and SOMEone is going to run with the implication. The overall intent will be ignored, assuming it was good intent.

Lee Stoneking--just preaching his thoughts--has, with Ruth Reider, inspired a sub culture of belief about cut hair that is patently unbiblical, and I seriously doubt that was his intent.

In THIS case, I think it WAS the intent to lay some framework, but perhaps things got out of hand and moved along quicker, and differently than was originally planned.

Irrelevant, really, because the end is still chaos and discord.

One preacher said to a group of fellow ministers about another preacher who wasn't present: "I had to let him go." "Why?" *quiet smile* "I can't say, but he did commit sin." Rumor mill took that quiet, vague comment and RAN away with it.

People are people everywhere.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

For all the talk about 'recruiting' and 'stealing members' and 'unethical' that abounds I have to tell you that this isn't the spirit of the coordinators at all!

With all respect, Elder, this may be true from YOUR perspective...however, my brother pastors a UPCI assembly in Illinois.

He told me he has been approached several times by WPFers to leave the UPCI and join them, and I don't mean just in the beginning. This is true in recent months...

Again, I am NOT doubting your word, but this is just your experience, and the view of the men you were with.

It is NOT the experience of everyone.

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

This makes me think of the Lee Stoneking thread...becauuuussseee...I think that leaders often underestimate the power of suggestion. They can make a suggestion to an audience, veiled, implied or outright--and SOMEone is going to run with the implication. The overall intent will be ignored, assuming it was good intent.

Lee Stoneking--just preaching his thoughts--has, with Ruth Reider, inspired a sub culture of belief about cut hair that is patently unbiblical, and I seriously doubt that was his intent.

In THIS case, I think it WAS the intent to lay some framework, but perhaps things got out of hand and moved along quicker, and differently than was originally planned.

Irrelevant, really, because the end is still chaos and discord.

One preacher said to a group of fellow ministers about another preacher who wasn't present: "I had to let him go." "Why?" *quiet smile* "I can't say, but he did commit sin." Rumor mill took that quiet, vague comment and RAN away with it.

People are people everywhere.

Good post, Missy...

["GL"]

Many UPC miisters just received an invite to attend a "round table," discussion with members of their council. Evidently, these meetings are regional. They want to "hear from you."

[bishoph]

Originally Posted by "GL"

Many UPC miisters just received an invite to attend a "round table," discussion with members of their council. Evidently, these meetings are regional. They want to "hear from you."

To be fair and balanced.......this invitation was sent out to Independents, and organizational men from various oneness groups alike. While I do understand where some people draw their conclusions from, I think that this invite is no different from the AWCF or any other group inviting organizational men to participate. (For those that say it is an organization (and it may indeed become one) because it has all of the same features i.e. youth, missions, etc............ so does the AWCF and other "fellowship" groups.)

Secondly in answer to those who say it is/was all about politics, I completely disagree! Having a very clear understanding of its structure such an accusation is unwarranted. From the choosing of the chairman (with exception of the initial chairman limited to 2 years)to the term limits, to the replacement process, all are by "lot" which eliminates politicking IMHO. Just doesn't sound like something power hungry people would set up.

[timlan2057]

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

This post is sooooo funny in retrospect.

Ed, I have to agree with you.

Especially since it was posted with that condescending tone of "You're questioning the man of God ... all you poor carnal, dumb 'saints' who can't polish our boots."

And of course included in the "poor carnal saints" group are the "liberal" carnal preachers who just are not up to our level of spirituality.

Funny the follow-up on this has been virtually nil, eh?

[timlan2057]

Okay, as far as how much "politics were involved in this:

I don't think I'm so brilliant that my old posts are worth resurrecting - aw, who am I kidding? I'm resurrecting one anyway.

But here's what I posted when this WPF-or-whatever thing started and it's of course still relevant to the subject:

Now Steadfast, in your attempts to make these Tulsa brethren's motives appear as pure as the wind-driven snow, you gotta admit the kid might have a point here.

"Might"?

I KNOW he does.

Let's use a specific example of whether the Tulsa guys are motivated by the UPC drifting "leftward."

I guess "worldly sports" would be considered something these guys would be concerned with, eh?

I notice Rick Treece is one of the "council of 49."

He's a great guy, a fine minister and one of the not-so-many whose ministry is not just a pale reflection of daddy's. He carved out his own niche and is not just "prophecy preacher" Jr.

Marvin Treece was not my pastor. Murrell Ewing was. But Marvin Treece was probably the preacher I tried to emulate as far as study habits, qualifications and professional bearing.

One could sit in front of Marvin Treece and feel the same sense of "qualification" and "professionalism" that one feels in his doctor's or attorney's office.

That's not a common thing to me.

A significant number of "ole time" pentecostal preachers, I wouldn't want or trust to counsel me when to go use the bathroom, much less on weightier matters involving my career or family.

But my relationship with the Treeces goes back many years.

I've preached for them and they've preached for me.

Marvin and Rick never were big "organizational" men.

I don't mean that in a bad sense - but in the sense that Marvin might not go every night to Louisiana campmeeting because he was fatigued from preaching out. Like he told me one time: "I want to be home sometimes."

But I find it rather ludicrous that Rick Treece would be on the general board of a new organization predicated on being more "holy" and "conservative" than the present day UPC.

But anyway, back to "worldly sports."

My ex-brother-in-law has attended Apostolic Temple for many years.

And yes, we still have very friendly relations.

His sons are and were extremely good high school athletes ... almost borderline college-scholarship athletes. Baseball and basketball, primarily.

And yes, with all the "immodest clothing" and "worldly atmosphere" and all the tired old cliches "old time pentecost" throws at these things.

I checked with my son and daughter to be sure my facts were straight and they mentioned times when their cousins could not be at youth camp because of American Legion baseball schedules.

Now me personally?

I'M not calling "hypocrites." My children's cousins are fine young men and I'm glad they are examples of 21st century apostolic youth, ALONG with Kathleen Herles.

I guess the stone-throwers like this "Melody" would rather have them on a barstool than wearing a dress that shows a little shoulder or wearing basketball shorts.

I'm not condemning - I applaud Pastor Treece for not being some micro-manager pastor.

And yes, my ex-brother-in-law's family is involved and are one of the main families at Apostolic Temple - they are not just observers.

Pray tell, HOW would some of these neanderthals in the Tulsa crowd feel if they knew one of their oh-so-conservative general board members allows his youth to play worldly high school sports?

So what is happening?

This is a political shindig where these guys are tolerating in their buddies what they condemn in their political enemies.

That's the truth that this SPECIFIC example brings out.

I won't even TOUCH the TV thing.

But frankly, I don't blame Epley for laughing at some of the names on there who are so dead set against television while their churches are full of them.

I'll leave that alone.

But if any of you people trying to make plaster saints out of this Tulsa gang challenges me on this, I can and WILL name names.

But you people know the truth of that as much as I do.

So JrLa, for a young guy with a lot to learn, you hit the nail right on the head so don't let anyone try to tell you your youth betrays you here.

Tulsa is NOT about "convictions."

It's about POLITICS, pure and simple.

And some of you preachers and others can just wrestle with that all you want to.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by timlan2057

Okay, as far as how much "politics were involved in this:

I don't think I'm so brilliant that my old posts are worth resurrecting - aw, who am I kidding? I'm resurrecting one anyway.

But here's what I posted when this WPF-or-whatever thing started and it's of course still relevant to the subject:

ALL organizations are political period. I am not anti-WPF that is their right.
However they need to call it what it is and that ii is certainly an organization maybe structured a little different but an organization just the same.

I have no desire to join but I wish them well. Their 'stand' on television is interesting to say the least? How can I be so anti-television advertizing and have a church full of television is the question?

I understand if that was the last straw but to make it a rallying cry seems hollow?

[TJJJ]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

ALL organizations are political period. I am not anti-WPF that is their right.
However they need to call it what it is and that ii is certainly an organization maybe structured a little different but an organization just the same.

I have no desire to join but I wish them well. Their 'stand' on television is interesting to say the least? How can I be so anti-television advertizing and have a church full of television is the question?

I understand if that was the last straw but to make it a rallying cry seems hollow?

Bro Epley,

I believe your comments and support them wholeheartedly. It is all about politics.

As far as the question about TV being their rallying cry, they have to use something. But we cannot allow them to cloud the issue and cover their political hypocrisy with a cloak of legitimacy. It would be better if they just said, "We're not happy with the way it's being run and desire something different". Instead they must demonize the very thing that many of them came out of.

[EA]

Man, if I had a dime for every lie these guys told back then I would be a rich man.