Agenda Driven or Accepting of Diversity?

[Raven]

Very well said Apprehended!!! A great deal of wisdom there.
Raven

[StillStanding]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Amen. Glad someone was able to see what I was talking about.

Remembering the Word ask the question, "how can two walk together except they agree," does not imply that they must agree on every single minute item of insignifance. Agenda driven dogmatist use those minute items to divide the body of Christ in the presence of pride.

I visited with and preached for Billy Cole in Thailand when he was there. We had blessed fellowship together for serveral days. I believe it was as much blessed for him as it was for me. We discussed many, many things from the Word which gave me a insight on some of the things that he believed at the time.

While there, we went swimming at his retreat down on the Gulf of Siam. He told me that after being in Thailand for a very long time, he had no fellowship with another Christian of any sort as most of his time was spent in the hinterlands of that country. He had become starved for some sort of fellowship. (Kind of hard to believe since we have so much of it here) Nevertheless, he had become so starved that when he happened upon an old Greek Orthodox priest, he was so happy to at least find someone who believed that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, he fell on that old priests shoulder and wept. I've never forgotten that. The only, absolutely ONLY basis of that fellowship for that brief moment was that they both rejoiced in the knowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Imgagine THAT.

That illustration is far afield from the original thought of this thread, nevertheless it underscores the idea that there are basis on which another christian and yourself, as you noted, can have good fellowship but for the obnoxious personality trait of the dogmatist.

You find dogmatist in every camp. They come in all stripes, shades and sizes. They give no latitude. Little do they understand that we have fellowship with Jesus Christ found in each other. When I see another Christian, I listen for the voice of the Spirit rather than the voice of the person himself. The voice of the Spirit is often...yea, all too often obscured by the voice of the dogmatist who inisist upon his minute point over which he is willing to divide the body of Christ. With that understanding, I was able to have sweet fellowship with Brother Reynolds, the AOG preacher. The fellowship was with Christ IN HIM.

Hard spirits are a source of great grief in the heart of Christ since it is so much the element of pride in that personality. Pride of the agenda driven dogmatist lifts one up just a notch above his bretheren. Often they do not recognize what they are doing. While it is the motivation of the dogmatist to seperate fellowship with his bretheren over the mundane and insignificant, the Spirit of Christ will break fellowship with such arrogance. The dirty little secret is, there is a great cavern of spiritual failures in such a one. If it were possible to pull back the curtain to see behind the veil of that personality, the darkness and horror would be shocking. They are far from living a life of victory in Jesus.

Should I ever see you, Crack I will not seek to have fellowship over some of the DUMB things that you believe, but I will seek to have fellowship with the Spirit of Christ in my brother for whom Christ died, in whom the Spirit of Christ dwells. Having found that, I will scarcely remember those far out things that you believe and we will share the joys of knowing Him and the fellowship of His hope and promise, while you overlook some of the dumb things that I believe. That fellowship in Christ will not be broken by our differences in opinions.

Love you, bro. Crack.

This ia a great post!

You have put into words exactly why I like to fellowship with folks from my Apostolic roots.

I have a significant investment in time and experience worshiping in a conservative UPCI church. I have many positive experiences with sincere godly saints and preachers over the years.

I hope it doesn't come across that I have an agenda! I just simply like to fellowship with folks that I think I understand completely.

I know that I will not ever be accepted as I am because of changes of some beliefs, but the fellowship is something that is kind of nice for the moment.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Amen. Glad someone was able to see what I was talking about.

Remembering the Word ask the question, "how can two walk together except they agree," does not imply that they must agree on every single minute item of insignifance. Agenda driven dogmatist use those minute items to divide the body of Christ in the presence of pride.

I visited with and preached for Billy Cole in Thailand when he was there. We had blessed fellowship together for serveral days. I believe it was as much blessed for him as it was for me. We discussed many, many things from the Word which gave me a insight on some of the things that he believed at the time.

While there, we went swimming at his retreat down on the Gulf of Siam. He told me that after being in Thailand for a very long time, he had no fellowship with another Christian of any sort as most of his time was spent in the hinterlands of that country. He had become starved for some sort of fellowship. (Kind of hard to believe since we have so much of it here) Nevertheless, he had become so starved that when he happened upon an old Greek Orthodox priest, he was so happy to at least find someone who believed that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, he fell on that old priests shoulder and wept. I've never forgotten that. The only, absolutely ONLY basis of that fellowship for that brief moment was that they both rejoiced in the knowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Imgagine THAT.

That illustration is far afield from the original thought of this thread, nevertheless it underscores the idea that there are basis on which another christian and yourself, as you noted, can have good fellowship but for the obnoxious personality trait of the dogmatist.

You find dogmatist in every camp. They come in all stripes, shades and sizes. They give no latitude. Little do they understand that we have fellowship with Jesus Christ found in each other. When I see another Christian, I listen for the voice of the Spirit rather than the voice of the person himself. The voice of the Spirit is often...yea, all too often obscured by the voice of the dogmatist who inisist upon his minute point over which he is willing to divide the body of Christ. With that understanding, I was able to have sweet fellowship with Brother Reynolds, the AOG preacher. The fellowship was with Christ IN HIM.

Hard spirits are a source of great grief in the heart of Christ since it is so much the element of pride in that personality. Pride of the agenda driven dogmatist lifts one up just a notch above his bretheren. Often they do not recognize what they are doing. While it is the motivation of the dogmatist to seperate fellowship with his bretheren over the mundane and insignificant, the Spirit of Christ will break fellowship with such arrogance. The dirty little secret is, there is a great cavern of spiritual failures in such a one. If it were possible to pull back the curtain to see behind the veil of that personality, the darkness and horror would be shocking. They are far from living a life of victory in Jesus.

Should I ever see you, Crack I will not seek to have fellowship over some of the DUMB things that you believe, but I will seek to have fellowship with the Spirit of Christ in my brother for whom Christ died, in whom the Spirit of Christ dwells. Having found that, I will scarcely remember those far out things that you believe and we will share the joys of knowing Him and the fellowship of His hope and promise, while you overlook some of the dumb things that I believe. That fellowship in Christ will not be broken by our differences in opinions.

Love you, bro. Crack.

Thanks for a great post, Brother it shows great depth and the spirit of Jesus, I would not hesitate a moment to fellowship with you. As I have said many times, though I sincerely believe God's intention is to eventually bring every member of His creation to redemption, I am not so arrogant to believe that I could not be wrong. My confidence does not cause me to separate myself from fellow believers in Christ.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Sherri

Steadfast, I'm glad you brought this up, even though it could have easily turned into an ugly shout-fest. I think, having been on both sides of the fence at some point in my life, that both sides are misunderstood. When I was very young, and had just gotten the Holy Ghost, I tended to pick up EVERYTHING that anyone preached, no matter how far out and take it upon myself as a new "standard". I thought all men of God were really men of God and trusted them explicitly. I nearly drove my family and myself crazy! I would not even walk in a room where a TV was playing, and we had five in our house!

After having worked through all that and learning to understand the Word for myself, I now have deep convictions that are from God alone and I will not change them for anyone. Now to you, I may seem like a liberal, but to most of our friends, I am a die-hard conservative. So the titles are confusing once you get outside of the OP realm.

It saddens me that I can call you brother, but you probably would not call me sister. It saddens me that my real brother, who is one of the best speakers in the world, probably could never preach in our church. (I don't blame him for that; it's just the law of the land). It saddens me that all of us cannot fellowship over the 90% that we do agree on and forget the 10% that we disagree on. It saddens me that some people on here obviously do not think that I'm saved when I know the relationship I have with Jesus.

It is discouraging to post threads on here about people getting the Holy Ghost or getting healed and only a certain few people will respond, because the more conservative ones wouldn't want to acknowledge that it could actually happen or be the real thing. Just being honest here.....

That's why I love Sis. Alvear. She can absolutely see Jesus in everyone. She has come to visit me and we are as far apart in beliefs as anyone on here, but we love each other dearly. To me, she reaches out to every end of the spectrum and knows that God is working in all of us.

Hope this doesn't sound like "woe is me". I do love and appreciate everyone on here and highly respect your beliefs. I hope that I can prove myself to you as well.

Sis. C, you don't have to prove anything to anyone, but you have in ways too numerous to mention.

[Sherri]

Well, this has definitely been an interesting thread! It's good to dialogue without malice and mean spirits that have flown around on here in days past, from both ends of the spectrum.

I will be the first to admit that some libs who leave UPC go absolutely crazy and try to get everyone else to follow them and they get very fleshly, thinking that they have liberty in all things. We have found out that the law of love is greater than the law of liberty. Some things I may have the liberty to do, but to keep from offending a brother or sister, I abstain from them. It's really not a big deal - you just try to please God in all things. Plus He has given me very definite personal convictions about some things that all my friends do, but I can't.

So, Wholehearted, there are some of us who have left that have searched out Scriptures and have decided to live holy, according to what we understand from the Word of God. We do not try to drag others out of UPC and we don't flaunt liberties and we don't make fun of those who believe much stricter standards. I think everyone has to answer to God and if He leads them to adhere to very strict things, then that's what they should do. It's not a matter of "we are enlightened" and you are not; it's just where God has led us as individuals. We have always told people to stay in UPC if you can do it with good conscience.

Thank you, Steadfast, for your kind words. I could hang out with you and have a great time; I have utmost respect for you and your church.

Originally Posted by Sherri

Well, this has definitely been an interesting thread! It's good to dialogue without malice and mean spirits that have flown around on here in days past, from both ends of the spectrum.

I will be the first to admit that some libs who leave UPC go absolutely crazy and try to get everyone else to follow them and they get very fleshly, thinking that they have liberty in all things. We have found out that the law of love is greater than the law of liberty. Some things I may have the liberty to do, but to keep from offending a brother or sister, I abstain from them. It's really not a big deal - you just try to please God in all things. Plus He has given me very definite personal convictions about some things that all my friends do, but I can't.

So, Wholehearted, there are some of us who have left that have searched out Scriptures and have decided to live holy, according to what we understand from the Word of God. We do not try to drag others out of UPC and we don't flaunt liberties and we don't make fun of those who believe much stricter standards. I think everyone has to answer to God and if He leads them to adhere to very strict things, then that's what they should do. It's not a matter of "we are enlightened" and you are not; it's just where God has led us as individuals. We have always told people to stay in UPC if you can do it with good conscience.

Thank you, Steadfast, for your kind words. I could hang out with you and have a great time; I have utmost respect for you and your church.

Thank you, kind Lady!

[Maple Leaf]

Originally Posted by Sherri

Well, this has definitely been an interesting thread! It's good to dialogue without malice and mean spirits that have flown around on here in days past, from both ends of the spectrum.

I will be the first to admit that some libs who leave UPC go absolutely crazy and try to get everyone else to follow them and they get very fleshly, thinking that they have liberty in all things. We have found out that the law of love is greater than the law of liberty. Some things I may have the liberty to do, but to keep from offending a brother or sister, I abstain from them. It's really not a big deal - you just try to please God in all things. Plus He has given me very definite personal convictions about some things that all my friends do, but I can't.

So, Wholehearted, there are some of us who have left that have searched out Scriptures and have decided to live holy, according to what we understand from the Word of God. We do not try to drag others out of UPC and we don't flaunt liberties and we don't make fun of those who believe much stricter standards. I think everyone has to answer to God and if He leads them to adhere to very strict things, then that's what they should do. It's not a matter of "we are enlightened" and you are not; it's just where God has led us as individuals. We have always told people to stay in UPC if you can do it with good conscience.

Thank you, Steadfast, for your kind words. I could hang out with you and have a great time; I have utmost respect for you and your church.

Very well said Milady.

Very well said indeed.

Also, I have been feeling guilty since reading your earlier post. I read all of your reports and enjoy them, especially the missions oriented posts, but I usually just say "Praise the Lord," and go on my way. But, in spite of the lack of response, your posts have been a blessing to me.

[Sherri]

Originally Posted by Maple Leaf

Very well said Milady.

Very well said indeed.

Also, I have been feeling guilty since reading your earlier post. I read all of your reports and enjoy them, especially the missions oriented posts, but I usually just say "Praise the Lord," and go on my way. But, in spite of the lack of response, your posts have been a blessing to me.

It's nice of you to say this, ML. I've been very convicted lately just to learn to love people where they are, from one extreme to the other. That's my goal for 2008!

[anapko]

Originally Posted by Sherri

Steadfast, I'm glad you brought this up, even though it could have easily turned into an ugly shout-fest. I think, having been on both sides of the fence at some point in my life, that both sides are misunderstood. When I was very young, and had just gotten the Holy Ghost, I tended to pick up EVERYTHING that anyone preached, no matter how far out and take it upon myself as a new "standard". I thought all men of God were really men of God and trusted them explicitly. I nearly drove my family and myself crazy! I would not even walk in a room where a TV was playing, and we had five in our house!

After having worked through all that and learning to understand the Word for myself, I now have deep convictions that are from God alone and I will not change them for anyone. Now to you, I may seem like a liberal, but to most of our friends, I am a die-hard conservative. So the titles are confusing once you get outside of the OP realm.

It saddens me that I can call you brother, but you probably would not call me sister. It saddens me that my real brother, who is one of the best speakers in the world, probably could never preach in our church. (I don't blame him for that; it's just the law of the land). It saddens me that all of us cannot fellowship over the 90% that we do agree on and forget the 10% that we disagree on. It saddens me that some people on here obviously do not think that I'm saved when I know the relationship I have with Jesus.

It is discouraging to post threads on here about people getting the Holy Ghost or getting healed and only a certain few people will respond, because the more conservative ones wouldn't want to acknowledge that it could actually happen or be the real thing. Just being honest here.....

That's why I love Sis. Alvear. She can absolutely see Jesus in everyone. She has come to visit me and we are as far apart in beliefs as anyone on here, but we love each other dearly. To me, she reaches out to every end of the spectrum and knows that God is working in all of us.

Hope this doesn't sound like "woe is me". I do love and appreciate everyone on here and highly respect your beliefs. I hope that I can prove myself to you as well.

All that can be said is AMEN