Anyone Here Believe In Soul Sleep?

[DerechHashem]

Originally Posted by easter

I have examined ever possible theory about the state of the soul at death.Now one can examine the theory on soul-sleep and the theory on absent from the body,present with the Lord.

If the spirit remains with the dead physcial body in the grave then this is soul-sleep.Soul remains on earth in grave with dead body.

Paul says Absent from the body,present with the Lord.So this theory says that when our physcial body dies our soul goes to be with the Lord.Meaning our souls are no longer on this earth but with the Lord.

Then we read that when Jesus comes back,God brings those who are asleep [DEAD] in Christ with him.

Logical reasoning.... Our souls must not be here on earth soul-sleeping because in scripture it states that God brings the souls with him.So if God brings them back with him,then they must be with the LORD like Paul claims,absent from the body,present with the Lord.

He will raise the dead and bring them back with him to there many mansions, in heaven.

[Michael The Disciple]

MBlume

SOUL SLEEP is a doctrine easily refuted by one verse: 2 Cor 5:8. And whereas you believe Paul was pipe dreaming in that verse,

I said no such thing. Here is what I said:

Anyway lets once again go though the context of 2 Cor. 5.

This is often used against soul sleep teaching. However it fails to take the CONTEXT of 2 Cor.

Paul teaches:

1: For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2: For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4: For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5: Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6: Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7: (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9: Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Cor. 5:1-10

The "instant Heaven" doctrine would grant mortality being swallowed up of life at the moment of death.

However the VERY SAME PAUL tells us EXACTLY when mortality will be swallowed up of life. Exactly when this MORTAL will put on IMMORTALITY

51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

So Paul was giving his doctrine to the very same group of people. The Corinthians. There could have been no misunderstanding on their part.

Immortality is given at the last trump at Christs coming.

When he says we are willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord observe the context. He says "if our bodies are dissolved" we have another body eternal in the Heavens.

It is clear from his PREVIOUS TEACHING to them that the NEW BODY OF IMMORTALITY is given not at death but at the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD taught by him in 1 Cor. 15.

So when we are absent FROM THE BODY THAT IS DISSOLVED then (at resurrection) we can take on the new immortal body he speaks of that is eternal in the Heavens.

It cannot be overlooked that Pauls belief was that eternal life was synonomous with IMMORTALITY.

To the Romans:

6: Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Romans 2:6-7

Eternal life is the same as IMMORTALITY. Immortality is plainly given at the RESURRECTION.

52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

So the "instant Heaven" doctrine disappears from 2 Cor. 5:8 when its CONTEXT is considered.

What does Paul mean by asking the question "Oh death where is thy sting" and "Oh grave where is thy victory".

The sting of death and the victory over the grave is so plainly LINKED TO THE RESURRECTION.

The erroneous doctrine of eternal life apart from the resurrectionhas no meaning in this light. Until then death has the victory according to Paul.

Christians today only think the grave is already defeated. It is something taken by faith. Yet its reality is NOT UNTIL THIS:

54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

[mfblume]

MichaeltheDisciple,

You did indeed say it was Paul's wishful thinking that absence from the body is presence with the Lord. You said it on another thread (PROOF OF SOUL SLEEP) in this same deep waters section:

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/sho...0&postcount=22

Originally Posted by Michael the Disciple

Paul did not say absence from the body is to be present with the Lord. He said he was WILLING TO BE ABSENT FROM THE BODY AND PRESENT WITH THE LORD.

What else did you mean when you said, "Paul did not say absence from the body is to be present with the Lord. He said he was WILLING TO BE ABSENT FROM THE BODY AND PRESENT WITH THE LORD"???

DerechHashem did not say Paul merely WILLED something that would not come to pass. DH said:

When we die, are we immediately at home with the Lord?

No.

2Co 5:6-8

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

To be absent from the body is death.

While sleeping in the grave, we will not be conscious of the passage of time.

That is a far cry from saying Paul merely WILLED to do something He could not do.

However, nothing in the bible says it will only SEEM like a twinkling of an eye. Paul said it is actually a twinkling of an eye. As soon as we die, we are absent from the body and go on to immediately be with the Lord. That is why Paul spoke of our souls and spirits being NAKED. WITHOUT the body is OUTSIDE the body. And we are temporarily OUTSIDE the body when we die. We will be clothed upon with a new body which is the earthly one changed into a spiritual but very physical one. The bible does not teach a seeming instant change, as though in reality the so7ul and spirit sleep for millennia.

DH said that absence from the body is death, although he did not explain that. All he went on to say was that other passages, to him, stated an APPARENT instant departure to be with Jesus. But Paul never said anything was apparent anywhere.

I cannot see how anyone can believe that we DO become absent from the body at death, and yet believe in soul sleep. Absence from the body, whether it is death or not, is absence of the SOUL and SPIRIT from the body. At any rate you said Paul did not say he would be absent from the body but WILLED to be so. That is true if you were referring to the aspect of how he chose not to die but continue ministering. However, you implied it was a fantasy. At least DH said it was not a fantasy but simply death. However, DEATH, in that case, means absence from the body. That means WE LEAVE OUR BODIES. And where do we go? To be present with the Lord OUTSIDE OUT BODIES. So, there is no way that soul sleep can occur.

[DerechHashem]

Originally Posted by mfblume

MichaeltheDisciple,

You did indeed say it was Paul's wishful thinking that absence from the body is presence with the Lord. You said it on another thread (PROOF OF SOUL SLEEP) in this same deep waters section:

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/sho...0&postcount=22



What else did you mean when you said, "Paul did not say absence from the body is to be present with the Lord. He said he was WILLING TO BE ABSENT FROM THE BODY AND PRESENT WITH THE LORD"???

DerechHashem did not say Paul merely WILLED something that would not come to pass. DH said:



That is a far cry from saying Paul merely WILLED to do something He could not do.

However, nothing in the bible says it will only SEEM like a twinkling of an eye. Paul said it is actually a twinkling of an eye. As soon as we die, we are absent from the body and go on to immediately be with the Lord. That is why Paul spoke of our souls and spirits being NAKED. WITHOUT the body is OUTSIDE the body. And we are temporarily OUTSIDE the body when we die. We will be clothed upon with a new body which is the earthly one changed into a spiritual but very physical one. The bible does not teach a seeming instant change, as though in reality the so7ul and spirit sleep for millennia.

DH said that absence from the body is death, although he did not explain that. All he went on to say was that other passages, to him, stated an APPARENT instant departure to be with Jesus. But Paul never said anything was apparent anywhere.

I cannot see how anyone can believe that we DO become absent from the body at death, and yet believe in soul sleep. Absence from the body, whether it is death or not, is absence of the SOUL and SPIRIT from the body. At any rate you said Paul did not say he would be absent from the body but WILLED to be so. That is true if you were referring to the aspect of how he chose not to die but continue ministering. However, you implied it was a fantasy. At least DH said it was not a fantasy but simply death. However, DEATH, in that case, means absence from the body. That means WE LEAVE OUR BODIES. And where do we go? To be present with the Lord OUTSIDE OUT BODIES. So, there is no way that soul sleep can occur.

He did "WILL, WANT, DESIRE, GROAN FOR".

Twinkling of an eye is at the last trump, not death.

[mfblume]

Amen. We are never absent from the body if soul sleep is true. So, either Paul was pipe dreaming, or else he stated a fact. He willed something that was possible, since the soul is absent from the body upon death. He did not will something that was fantasy.

[DerechHashem]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Amen. We are never absent from the body if soul sleep is true. So, either Paul was pipe dreaming, or else he stated a fact. He willed something that was possible, since the soul is absent from the body upon death. He did not will something that was fantasy.

Casper the friendly ghost is a Catholic Church teaching.

[Michael The Disciple]

What I really said

When he says we are willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord observe the context. He says "if our bodies are dissolved" we have another body eternal in the Heavens.

It is clear from his PREVIOUS TEACHING to them that the NEW BODY OF IMMORTALITY is given not at death but at the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD taught by him in 1 Cor. 15.

So when we are absent FROM THE BODY THAT IS DISSOLVED then (at resurrection) we can take on the new immortal body he speaks of that is eternal in the Heavens.

And from that MBlume says that I said Paul was merely "pipe dreaming".

Michael, I cant believe you would so distort my words. Oh well other cheek turned so go ahead and smite.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

And from that MBlume says that I said Paul was merely "pipe dreaming".

Michael, I cant believe you would so distort my words. Oh well other cheek turned so go ahead and smite.

Did I quote the words you quoted? No. I do not even recall ever reading them. Where are they? I quoted the words that you said that gave me the impression you believed Paul was pipe dreaming. And FROM THEM I got that impression. I never quoted your words you just quoted, since I cannot recall ever reading them.

So how can you say I took THOSE WORDS and said you felt Paul was pipe dreaming?

I am distorting nothing intentionally. Whew. Give me a royal break! You said Paul did not say absence from the body means presence with the Lord. You said Paul said HE WILLED to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Derech Hashem

Twinkling of an eye is at the last trump, not death.

...

He will raise the dead and bring them back with him to there many mansions, in heaven.

That is not what John 14 said, I believe. More on that later.

...
Casper the friendly ghost is a Catholic Church teaching.

I do not believe in ghosts, but the bible says we are absent from the body, and it simply says THE BODY. Any BODY.

When a man dies, he is asleep and does not awake until the end of time. But doesn't Paul say that the very moment he dies he will be with Christ?

Yes He said that at the moment of death he leaves the body to be with Christ.

Phil 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Phil 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Phil 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Phil 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

See? Flesh, immortal or not, is flesh. And to be absent from flesh is to be with Christ.

Death causes us to leave the flesh and be with Christ.

2 Cor 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2 Cor 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2 Cor 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Jesus equated death with sleep

And putting this together with Paul's words, we realize the BODY ALONE SLEEPS.

, so Paul is saying that should he die, he would sleep the sleep of death, and next see Jesus Christ after the resurrection.

No this cannot be. Paul would have said that it is an apparent instant but not actual. But he did not say that. We have to read that into the text, since it is not there.

To Paul, however, the passing of time after his death would be as an instant, the blink of an eye, and his next thing he would know it would be the second coming, and the resurrection of all the righteous saints.

He, he said that the blink of an eye is how long it takes for the mortal body to be changed into an immortal one. Are you saying the change of the mortal body to immortal may take as long a time as it takes from the moment of death, which could be two thousand years for Paul, until Jesus comes? The text reads that the CHANGE occurs from mortal to immortal in that amount of time. It does not say the span of time from death til the coming of Jesus is APPARENTLY a twinkling of an eye.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

When does Jesus receive us? Jesus says it will be at His second coming, not at the moment of death.

That passage is not even talking about his second coming. The word "mansions" in Greek is the same word as ABODE in verse 23. WE WILL MAKE OUR ABODE/MANSION WITH HIM. It is talking about the Holy Ghost baptism. The Father's House is Jesus' body! He said so. His Father dwelt IN HIM. And we become [art of the body and become MANSIONS/ABODES for Him, too.

Since the dead are asleep in the grave, what do they know, what are they conscious of?

Nothing in THIS world. Taking verses that say the dead know nothing is simply taking verses that speak of the context of things in this life. They know nothing of this life.

Blume, where is King David's soul?

With Christ. Since the resurrection, when Christ made atonement, David's soul is with the Lord.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. ...

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

King David is still in the grave. He is still asleep, still dead, not in heaven.

This is not saying David did not go to be with the Lord when Christ arose. It is saying that when David wrote the Psalm Peter quoted, it was not speaking of David rising to glory when David died. It was a future prediction of Jesus. Peter was preaching about resurrection. That means his reference to David being buried is only talking about David's body. The resurrection foretold in Psalms is the BODY of Jesus Christ. Do you believe Jesus' Spirit stayed in the grave 3 days?

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we are all witnesses.
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Acts 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Acts 3:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Please note that David is not in heaven (not even in some alleged spirit form). According to verse 34, he is still dead, still in the grave

The context is speaking of BODIES RISING. So Peter preached about David's BODY in the grave. David had not risen BODILY. That context speaks of Christ's BODY rising from the grave. We cannot ignore context here and say this means even his soul is in the grave.

While he was living, David spoke of the resurrection of Jesus, that Jesus would not be left in the grave (hell), but rather, God would raise Jesus from the dead and He would be exalted as Lord and Christ. It is this victory over death and the grave that Jesus Christ offers us if we will have faith in Him. But this reward is something we receive after our resurrection, not before:

Who said we receive it before? The soul leaving the body is not victory over the grave. The victory over the grave is when the BODY leaves the grave.

Rev 22:12 And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

We do not get access to the tree of life and live forever until after the second coming, at which time the righteous will be resurrected, and enter the New Jerusalem. That is when we will be given the opportunity to eat from the tree of life.

We eat from the tree of life now in Jesus. This has nothing to do with whether or not the soul remains in the grave with the body until resurrection.

My thoughts anyway. I respect yours.

[DerechHashem]

When a man dies, he is asleep and does not awake until the end of time. But doesn't Paul say that the very moment he dies he will be with Christ?

Phil 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Phil 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Phil 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Phil 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

2 Cor 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2 Cor 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2 Cor 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Jesus equated death with sleep, so Paul is saying that should he die, he would sleep the sleep of death, and next see Jesus Christ after the resurrection. To Paul, however, the passing of time after his death would be as an instant, the blink of an eye, and his next thing he would know it would be the second coming, and the resurrection of all the righteous saints.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

When does Jesus receive us? Jesus says it will be at His second coming, not at the moment of death.

Since the dead are asleep in the grave, what do they know, what are they conscious of?