Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?

[mfblume]

If the question has not changed, why should the answer?

When the jews asked Peter "What must we do?" it was obviously about salvation, because the text continues to say that Peter told them WITH MANY OTHER WORDS how to be saved.

Acts 2:40 KJV And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

WITH MANY OTHER WORDS, means that the words he already spoke from verses 38-39 were considered along with the MANY OTHER WORDS concerning how to be saved. If the MANY OTHER WORDS regarded salvation, then the previous words, WITH these many others, also concerned salvation.

Otherwise, were the words about HOW TO BE SAVED considered as no important as WORDS NOT TO DO WITH SALVATION that WERE written, for the writer Luke to discard them?

People still ask "What must we do?" Why give them a different response than Peter gave? The question has not changed. Why should the answer?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Read what almost happened to Moses when he didn't circumcise his son in Exodus.

Right!

Originally Posted by mfblume

If the question has not changed, why should the answer?

When the jews asked Peter "What must we do?" it was obviously about salvation, because the text continues to say that Peter told them WITH MANY OTHER WORDS how to be saved.

WITH MANY OTHER WORDS, means that the words he already spoke from verses 38-39 were considered along with the MANY OTHER WORDS concerning how to be saved. If the MANY OTHER WORDS regarded salvation, than the previous words WITH these many others, also concerned salvation.

Otherwise, were the words about HOW TO BE SAVED considered as no important as WORDS NOT TO DO WITH SALVATION that WERE written, for the writer Luke to discard them?

People still ask "What must we do?" Why give them a different response than Peter gave? The question has not changed. Why should the answer?

Amen! Good post!!! It's only logical.

[Praxeas]

Eze 44:9 Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.

Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Some believe we must imitate, emulate, re-enact the death, burial, resurretion of Jesus Christ by obeying the Gospel as stated by Peter in Acts 2:38 to be fully saved and born again.

They also believe that John 3:3 teaches the that being born of the water and spirit ... being born again is fully complete by a properly administered water baptism and speaking in other tongues as evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost.

Water baptism is perceived as being part of a recipe ... part of the BORN AGAIN MIX. Furthermore, water baptism is compared by them to only being buried w/ Christ.

The issue I'd like to address is whether or not this "burial" indeed partially regenerates us ... and is efficacious in quickening us by His Spirit into new birth, albeit partial.

It is my belief that Acts 10 still is the smoking gun ... against 3 step theology. If baptism is a burial of the dead man ... necessary to rid the man of the body of sin and wipe his sin stain ... then how could the Spirit of God quicken unto righteousness and life that which is still dead?

Does the indwelling of the Holy Ghost ["resurrrection"} represent the final piece of the 3 step puzzle that must be re-enacted that raises us into new life? ... does His Spirit do this while not setting us free of the law of sin and death or putting to death the deeds/sins of the body? (Romans 8:13)

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Please read Acts 8: 1-14 for this discussion.
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1. In Acts 10, we find those in the house of Cornelius showing evidence of being indwelt w/ the Holy Spirit yet had not, as some teach, been buried their body of sin ... or carnal man. Some would even say because they had not been baptized they are not yet declared righteous/justified and/or their slate not wiped clean through a properly administered baptism that would effectuate sin remission.

Furthermore, those w/ this sacramental mindset [a rite that mediates grace] are the first to say that unless one does not have the Spirit of Christ they are not His as it applies to speaking in tongues ... yet we see Cornelius being declared His, prior to water baptism.
(Romans 8:9)

We see the the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus setting him free from the law of sin and of death prior to re-enacting a burial of the body of sin???? (Romans 8:2)

2. Also we see that he is declared righteous before God and he is alive because of Christ's imputed righteousness ... by the Spirit indwelling. ....

Romans 8:10 - If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

3. Finally, if re-enactment theology is God-ordained ... repentance is death, baptism is burial and receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit is the resurrection ...

Then how can Cornelius through his being filled w/ the Holy Ghost have circumvented this process?
It is the initial indwelling of the Spirit of God that puts to DEATH THE DEEDS OF THE BODY SO THAT WE MAY BE QUICKENED TO LIFE, or Destroys the body of sin (Romans 6:6) ...

Romans 13 .... for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
These gaping holes in their theology show that one, namely Cornelius and those in his house, can be declared righteous, quickened unto life, put to death the deeds of the body, be declared His, set free from the law of sin and death .... not condemened in Christ Jesus ... PRIOR TO BEING FULLY SAVED ... REGENERATED ...OR COMPLETING THE NEW BIRTH PROCESS.

Cornelius was declared a son of God ... born of God ... prior to baptism. With all the priveleges ... full access to our Father and the inheritance of new life.

Romans 8
14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"
16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

All this before being BURIED INTO CHRIST and having the blood applied in his life???

Please reconcile Romans 8 and other scripture pointing to being born again/born of God BY HIS SPIRIT before completing the proported Born Again recipe.

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My now departed Grandfather, would say that God gave them the Spirit on Credit.

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by keith4him

My now departed Grandfather, would say that God gave them the Spirit on Credit.

What chapter and verse would GranPa have quoted on the credit theory?

[Praxeas]

Here is my other question, If these were regenerated as evidenced by receiving the Spirit (with tongues)....then were the Samaritans unregenerated though they believed and were baptized?

[bkstokes]

Originally Posted by keith4him

My now departed Grandfather, would say that God gave them the Spirit on Credit.

Paul said that what happened to Isreal was an example for us. The blood was applied before they went through the baptism of Moses. The Spirit was there with them before they went throught baptism as well. The purpose of baptism yes is to identify with his death and to circumcize our heart. Its purpose is to also cut us off from our spiritual egyptians. However, the blood was applied before all of this.

[ChristopherHall]

Is it possible that repentance brings forgiveness of personal sin thus allowing the Holy Ghost to be received prior to water baptism and water baptism buries the "sin nature" in it's entirety making one a new creature completely?

Therefore both are necessary for salvation but this explains how one can receive the Holy Ghost prior to water baptism. Remember there isn't only the issue of personal sin...there is also the sin nature.

I'm just asking the question. What do you guys think?

[Brother Price]

Great post, Sam! Love ya man!

[Neubill]

Shalom alecheim b’shem Yeshua Mishikheinu!
Peace be unto you my friends, in the Name of Yeshua, Our Messiah!

This is quite an interesting thread. Lots and lots of iron getting sharpened…

From some of the responses, I perceive that some feel baptism is unnecessary if an individual receives the Holy Spirit first.

I would like to offer something about baptism from a Jewish perspective, but the question I have for this post is this:

Do we agree that one must belong to Messiah in order to have eternal life?

To begin, most know this already but some here may be surprised to find out that baptism is not a New Testament concept. It’s found in the Torah. Whenever an individual required ritual cleansing (i.e. someone who was unclean until evening), that person would immerse in a mikvah. A mikvah was an immersion pool, and archeologists always knew they had uncovered evidence of a Jewish community when mikvahs were found. Bathsheba finished her niddah (menses in Hebrew) and was required to ritually immerse for purification purposes. She was using a mikvah when King David was acting like a Peeping Tom. Ritual immersion is found often in the Torah.

What most people don’t know about is another aspect of immersion, specifically beginning about 2 generations before time of The Master, Yeshua. The Bible College system in the days of the Pharisees was like this:

A rabbi (let's call him Rabbi Alicea) has a school of disciples, let’s say 8. These 8 disciples (talmidim in Hebrew), from the age of 13 to about 20 are committed to studying and learning everything Rb. Alicea knows about The Traditions of the Fathers (Oral Law) and the Torah (Written Law) until they can emulate his master in everything, from thought to action. If Rb. Alicea brushes his teeth left handed, so will the disciples. If Rb. Alicea looks at his right hand when he blesses the bread, so will the disciples. The disciple (talmid in Hebrew) imitates his master until…

“A disciple is not above his teacher, but every one perfected shall be as his teacher.” (Luke 6:40 YLT)

…the student becomes equal to the teacher in knowledge and understanding.

Now we can get down to brass tacks (and thank you for your patience). Once a disciple has become “…as his teacher,” the disciple is no longer a disciple; he is a Master, a Rabbi who is empowered to teach from the authority of Rb. Alicea (a graduate of Rb. Alicea’s Bible College, if you will). The act which seals the deal is when the former disciple is literally immersed in Rb. Alicea’s name. The disciple is no longer a talmid, but is now a Rabbi in his own right, empowered to speak, preach, and teach “in Rabbi Alicea’s name.” He can speak in Rb. Alicea’s name until the passing of Rb. Alicea, and then he can speak in his own name. The fact is that people were immersed in the names of the ones who taught them.

I want to add this before continuing. One of the greatest Rabbis before the birth of Yeshua was Rb. Hillel. Two generations after his passing, his school was led by the great Rb. Gamliel, and both rabbis have teachings which are in the Talmud, the codified written work of the Oral Law and its commentary. Rb. Gamliel is identified in Acts 5:34 as Gamaliel the Pharisee, and he taught Rb. Sha’ul of Tarsus, who we know better as The Apostle Paul. Paul knows all about people being baptized in the name of people.

and I say this, that each one of you saith, `I, indeed, am of Paul' -- `and I of Apollos,' -- `and I of Cephas,' -- `and I of Christ.'
Hath the Christ been divided? was Paul crucified for you? or to the name of Paul were ye baptized;
I give thanks to God that no one of you did I baptize, except Crispus and Gaius --
that no one may say that to my own name I did baptize; (1 Cor 1:12-15 YLT)

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

The issue I'd like to address is whether or not this "burial" indeed partially regenerates us ... and is efficacious in quickening us by His Spirit into new birth, albeit partial.

Do we agree that one must belong to Messiah in order to have eternal life?

If we keep in mind the fact that people were immersed in the name of the one who taught them, you can probably see where I’m going with this already, but let’s plug this into some cornerstone verses of our faith.

Yeshua and His 11 remaining disciples had counted the first 5-6 weeks of the seven week countdown to Pentecost, and before His Ascension, Yeshua

“opened he up their understanding to understand the Writings,” (Luke 24:45 YLT)

and gave them their primary directive,

“having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them -- to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) and lo, I am with you all the days -- till the full end of the age.” (Mat. 28:19-20 YLT)

We see this command to make disciples put into practice, as it was done in the 1st Century culture:

“…and Peter said unto them, 'Reform, and be baptized each of you on the name of Jesus Christ, to remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit,” (Acts 2:38 YLT)

Disciples are immersed in the name of their Rabbi.
Are we disciples? If so, then whose?
My Rabbi is Yeshua ADONAI, and I was immersed in His Name 12 years ago, for the remission of sins. I emerged from the baptistery with stammering lips. Tens of thousands of people have experienced this phenomenon unique to the Body of Messiah.

“…he who hath believed, and hath been baptized, shall be saved; and he who hath not believed, shall be condemned.” (Mark 16:16 YLT)

Do we agree that one must belong to Messiah in order to have eternal life?

I pray that our answer will always be “Yes and Amen!”

I’m not a scholar, just a crazy Jewish Believer who wants to see no one deceived and everyone saved.

Shalom uv’racha b’shem Yeshua Mishikheinu!
Peace and blessings unto you in the Name of Yeshua, Our Messiah!