Sabbath: In A Ditch Regarding the Seventh Day

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

First of all I raised the issue of circumcision because you raised the issue of the sabbath proceeding the law. Second of all you have failed to prove that we have to keep the entirety of the 10 commandments.

Third of all I have made many many MANY important arguments against yours....and I am still waiting for a reply

Praxeus...I think the burden is upon you to demonstrate to me that we DON'T have to obey God's moral law. But before you do, be advised of what Jesus said,

Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Jason

the bible doesn't define the law of God as the 10 commanments and the law of moses as the other 603. The law is referred synonymsly (sp?) as the law of God in some passages, the law of moses in others, the law, the ordaninces,etc.

Also you mentioned in another post tithing before the law. That is not a good argument, seeing how the new testament doesn't say a word to gentiles about tithing either. coincidence? i don't think so.

If I remember correctly the book of Acts indicates that in about 5 cases the gospel was taught on the Sabbath to both Jews in Gentiles...the "first day" reference is only found once in Acts in a meeting right before Paul's departure (notice he wated until the day following the Sabbath to travel) and the next reference is found in the Epistles relating to an offering to be gathered for Paul to take to Jerusalem, again this could indicate that Paul wanted them to gather finances...after the Sabbath.

Tithe's aren't mentioned once. So I feel there's a stronger point to be made fo the Sabbath in the NT than tithing.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I have to ask where does the bible say there are two laws? Where does the bible say if there are the separation is the 10 commandments and everything else? You know the rest of the law speaks of the Sabbath...is Homosexuality ok since the 10 commandments did not specifically mention them but the rest of the law did?

Many theologians (especially those into Thenomics) have illustrated who all of the laws found in the Law of Moses can be classified under at least one of the Ten Commandments. Technically any form of perversion or idolatry can be classified as adultery and is therefore prohibitted by the commandment against adultery. So the Law against adultery still stands, it's the implimentation of this law's enforcement found in the Law of Moses that was superceeded by the NT. So it's still a sin to commit adultery or any other perversion...we just don't stone the offender.

Also it sounds like you are saying there was no new commandment...there was just a subtraction from the old (the ceremonial laws from everything else)

The Ten Commandments embody God's desire for human behavior for all eternity. This is why they want them removed from courts and schools. There is a war AGAINST the Ten Commandments...sometimes we join ranks and bash them too. We should instead seek to obey the LORD.

And if this is your argument about the 10 commandments do you still agree we should stone the adulterer to death?

Notice that the Ten Commandments don't list penalties or punishments. Only the Law of Moses addresses penalties and "ceremonial" observances. These are no longer binding...but God's moral law, the Ten Commandments are.

[Antipas]

Here’s a deep one that could go several directions. Jesus specifically warned the disciples:
“And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.” (Matthew 24:20)
Why did Jesus indicate that Christians should be cautious not to evacuate the holy land on the Sabbath?

Historians tell us that both Jew and Gentile Christians maintained the Sabbath until about AD 120 when open persecution of the Jews reached a peak in ancient times. It was during this time that individual Christian bodies began meeting on Sunday to avoid persecution, because at the time there wasn’t a great distinction in the minds of the Romans between Jews and Christians. It’s a historical fact that Constantine changed the Sabbath observance to Sunday in AD 321. It wasn’t until after AD 460 that one reads of anyone referring to Sunday as “the Lord’s Day”. Consider the following quote:

“Most Christians assume that Sunday is the biblically approved day of worship. The Catholic Church protests that it transferred Christian worship from the biblical Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday, and that to try to argue that the change was made in the Bible is both dishonest and a denial of Catholic authority. If Protestantism wants to base its teachings only on the Bible, it should worship on Saturday.” — Rome's Challenge, www.immaculateheart.com/maryonline Dec 2003.

While I think it might be a stretch to say that one’s salvation depends upon observing the Sabbath, I think that history shows that Christians and Jews both met for worship on the Sabbath.

Here’s what I wrote my friend who is a Seventh Day believer…

I don’t think recognizing that Saturday is the Sabbath is something that should be so controversial. Nothing in the commandment commands temple observances, only that it be made holy and that we rest. Our church has a Saturday morning men’s prayer meeting every Saturday. I see this as a way of setting the day apart and making it holy unto the LORD. We normally go out for food and fellowship after the prayer meeting and I get home between 10 and 11 AM. I do nothing relating to “work” on Saturday. The only activity I perform is yard or house work (keeping my garden). I take my family out for lunch and we spend the day together. The day is strictly a day to be a “family” and to lift up the LORD as we “rest” from our week’s labor. Tell me…how do I not observe the Sabbath?

He hasn’t responded yet.

My favorite thing to do is go fishing on Saturday. There’s not rest like it. Being out on the lake, the boat gently rocking on the water, the sun shining on my shoulders, a bobber dancing between the waves, and an uninterrupted time to just talk to the LORD and thank him for all my blessings. Now…that’s a Sabbath.

[DividedThigh]

i believe in the new testament practice of worship on sunday in honor of the resurrection, i also beleive every day is a day to worship and live for god, none above the other, my humble opinion, dt

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Colossians 2:15-17

15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

how come this thread went past this post. this is the answer. period. end of story.

good job Baron!

[DividedThigh]

Originally Posted by Ferd

how come this thread went past this post. this is the answer. period. end of story.

good job Baron!

ditto baron, dt

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Antipas

This is complex because I do not fully understand the seventh day position. I can't address everyone of your arguments point by point. My primary issue is the Ten Commandments. I firmly believe that they are an eternal moral law and should be distinguished from the Law of Moses that were specifically for Israel.

As for the Ten Commandments under Grace we read from Paul:

Romans 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

This would indicate that the law of loving God with all one's heart is the foundation of the elements of the Ten Commandments that describe how God desires to be worshipped. God never "sanctified" the first day, he specifically sanctified the seventh from the beginning. One could ask, do we think God was just speaking for his health or to impress us, or was this foundational to how God (who never changes) desires worship?

I think you need to address each of my points, point by point because they are a point by point answer to each of the things you have asserted. Your claim is you are in a ditch and it seems that the intent was serious inquiry...so then if that is the case I think you need to weigh each of our points. At the very least say you just don't know the answer or that you see our points.

I say that again because part of your counter argument against Mike was that it was an argument from silence. No it was not and I should you why, but you never showed why it WAS an argument from silence.

This is VERY important because if you are wrong then you never considered Mikes point, yet this is the very reason you started this thread. The point is we are now under a NEW covenant....it is NOT like the old covenant. My question to you is this...if you wanted to know what the parameters were of the Old Covenant where would you go ??? the Old Testament? That would be a good guess....

So then if you were wanting to find out what the parameters are of the New Covenant, where would you go? The New Testament? That to me would be another good guess and if that is the case then pointing out that the NT does NOT teach us to keep a seventh day sabbath.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Antipas

My primary issue is the Ten Commandments. I firmly believe that they are an eternal moral law and should be distinguished from the Law of Moses that were specifically for Israel.

The "Ten Commandments" were a covenant agreement to Israel. You say "I believe" but that is not evidence of truth

As for the Ten Commandments under Grace we read from Paul:

Romans 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

This would indicate that the law of loving God with all one's heart is the foundation of the elements of the Ten Commandments that describe how God desires to be worshipped. God never "sanctified" the first day, he specifically sanctified the seventh from the beginning. One could ask, do we think God was just speaking for his health or to impress us, or was this foundational to how God (who never changes) desires worship?

Here is where you made a huge error. You failed to notice Paul mentioning the Sabbath. See Sabbath keeping is not an issue of morality. It's a rest day. How can I say that? Is not keeping a sabbath equal to adultery or murder? If so then Jesus was immoral.

Mat 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were hungry, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
Mat 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
Mat 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was hungry, and they that were with him;
Mat 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests
Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless
Mat 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Was Jesus immoral for breaking the moral law?

Now let me ask you a hypothetical. What if one of His disciples had a wife, but because he was so far away from his wife he decided to visit an old gal pal and have sex with her....he has an excuse right? Is there ever an excuse for immorality? Of course not!

You say the Sabbath was part of the Moral law. Who says anywhere in the bible "The 10 commandments are the moral law"? In fact you will find MUCH teaching on morality OUTSIDE the 10 commandments in other places of the law....the parts you called ceremonial or social AND you also find teaching on the sabbath and it is specifically taught that it was a covenant SIGN to Israel. The 10 Commandments teaches to stone the adulterer to death...do you keep doing that?

See there is only ONE law in the OT and it is given as part of a Covenant to Israel. We have a NEW covenant now and if you want to find out the definition of that covenant you read the NT not the OT.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Antipas

Praxeus...I think the burden is upon you to demonstrate to me that we DON'T have to obey God's moral law. But before you do, be advised of what Jesus said,

Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

No the burden is all on YOU. YOU made the assertion that the law could be divided into three different laws.

YOU made the assertion that the 10 commandments is THE moral law. You have the burden of proof. What I said was we have a NEW COVENANT...so I need to prove that to you? Do I need to prove to you that the LAW is the MOSAIC LAW given as part of the MOSAIC Covenant God made with Israel? That is basic 101 stuff unless you are a Jew. Come over to the New Covenant and I show you a much better way.

Read the New Covenant and Paul will teach you what is immoral and what is not. He lists all the things that are a sin.....and the works of the flesh. Not once does he mention the Sabbath.

Im sorry but this is basic stuff and I don't see why I should have to revisit something every Christian should know by now that we are NOT under the Old Covenant anymore., The purpose of the Old Covenant is to lead us TO Christ.

Notice the juxtaposition of guardian and law
Gal 3:21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Gal 3:23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.
Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,

Notice Paul does not distinguish between different laws or different sections OF the law. He just says Law. There is just ONE law in the OT and if you broke ONE commandment it was like breaking them all

Jas 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.
Jas 2:11 For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

Here is the thing I am trying to get you to do....YOU are the one asserting that the 10 commandments are THE MORAL LAW....in other words everything you wanted to know about what is moral and immoral is right there....and thus that must mean sabbath keeping is a moral issue. You have failed to prove that BUT my point is we are under the NEW COVENANT and not once does the NC mention the Sabbath as a moral code.