Original Sin/Ancestral Sin

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Certainly I still retain my Adamic nature which is prone to sin but that in itself does NOT make me a sinner.Temptation is NOT sin. Sin is an act committed. 1Jn.3:4 I am justifed with my Adamic nature yes. However an infant does NOT have the abillity to CHOOSE that is the crux. Your argument has NO merit give it up. Making a baby a sinner is a tough job I guess?

Make this statement for us all, Steve.....

"I do not need to be justified of my Adamic nature!"

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Adino

Make this statement for us all, Steve.....

"I do not need to be justified of my Adamic nature!"

YOU know I am NOT saying that. I certainly need His justifying Blood to accounted worthy to approach Him. My Adamic nature has a HISTORY!!!
A baby has NO history of wrong choices. I am NOT a baby and neither are you.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

YOU know I am NOT saying that. I certainly need His justifying Blood to accounted worthy to approach Him. My Adamic nature has a HISTORY!!!

A baby has NO history of wrong choices. I am NOT a baby and neither are you.

Steve, focus on what I've said. I've tried to get you to address the fallen nature of man itself and you continue to focus on its engendered by-products without getting the point.

The nature exists....... you admit this.

You also admit that the fallen nature of man (infant or otherwise) will not enter heaven.

Steve, the fallen nature is not physiological, it is spiritual. The fact that an infant receives a glorified physical body is irrelevant. The fallen nature is not physical, it is of the spirit.

To say the fallen nature will not be allowed into heaven means it must be eradicated from our spirit.

Why, Steve, must the fallen nature of man be eradicated?

When you admit it must be eradicated because it stands at spiritual enmity against God you have to also admit that it needs to be covered by the blood of Christ while here on earth even if it has not yet produced a sinful deed. The antagonistic spirit itself must be dealt with even if it has not yet manifested itself through sinful deeds because it is a spiritual abomination to God.

Because man possesses spiritually something at enmity against God at birth, he is, therefore, born depraved. He is not depraved only because of what he does, but because of what he is. He is a child of Adam.

Since all depravity is in need of justification, all men are born in need of salvation. All men need to be spiritually justified, not only of their sinful deeds, but of their sinful nature.

Will infants be damned? I've already said, no, and you can go back to earlier posts as to why I believe they are not.

BUT....

If our very nature needs justification in order to stand right before God, there is nothing we can do of ourselves to remedy this depravity except place our faith in the finished work of Christ.

The doctrine of original sin underscores the doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Adino

Steve, focus on what I've said. I've tried to get you to address the fallen nature of man itself and you continue to focus on its engendered by-products without getting the point.

The nature exists....... you admit this.

You also admit that the fallen nature of man (infant or otherwise) will not enter heaven.

Steve, the fallen nature is not physiological, it is spiritual. The fact that an infant receives a glorified physical body is irrelevant. The fallen nature is not physical, it is of the spirit.

To say the fallen nature will not be allowed into heaven means it must be eradicated from our spirit.

Why, Steve, must the fallen nature of man be eradicated?

When you admit it must be eradicated because it stands at spiritual enmity against God you have to also admit that it needs to be covered by the blood of Christ while here on earth even if it has not yet produced a sinful deed. The antagonistic spirit itself must be dealt with even if it has not yet manifested itself through sinful deeds because it is a spiritual abomination to God.

Because man possesses spiritually something at enmity against God at birth, he is, therefore, born depraved. He is not depraved only because of what he does, but because of what he is. He is a child of Adam.

Since all depravity is in need of justification, all men are born in need of salvation. All men need to be spiritually justified, not only of their sinful deeds, but of their sinful nature.

Will infants be damned? I've already said, no, and you can go back to earlier posts as to why I believe they are not.

BUT....

If our very nature needs justification in order to stand right before God, there is nothing we can do of ourselves to remedy this depravity except place our faith in the finished work of Christ.

The doctrine of original sin underscores the doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

Your LAST statement annuls your entire argument since a baby cannot and doesnot excercise faith in Christ. Justification is accomplished through faith an infant does not exercise faith. I say ease your mind the infants who are given eternal life will not have a sin nature.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Your LAST statement annuls your entire argument since a baby cannot and doesnot excercise faith in Christ. Justification is accomplished through faith an infant does not exercise faith. I say ease your mind the infants who are given eternal life will not have a sin nature.

Though you might wish my last statement was contradictory to my argument, it simply is not the case. I addressed the issue of an infants faith in a previous post (linked here), which is why I mentioned it.

A brief excerpt:

While Scripture emphatically says that faith is counted for righteousness and that Christ's righteousness is to all and upon all that believe, it does not say that same righteousness is not to all and upon all those depraved souls who die 'innocent.'

This whole thread was brought up in the context of a man being able to live righteously enough to merit a continued justification before God. I said even if a man was able to live completely above sinful deeds he would still need to be justified of the sinful nature which engendered those deeds. The point holds.

Come on, Steve. Go ahead and say the statement I asked you to declare. We know your Adamic nature "has a history" as you put it. We're not talking about those deeds it has engendered in your life. We're talking about the nature itself.

Go ahead and openly declare you believe your nature does not need to be justified before God.

Say it for us:

"I do not need to be justified of my Adamic nature!"

This is precisely what you believe.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Adino,

I believe our sinful nature is in our flesh. Our sinful nature cannot be made just, it is what it is. Our regeneration is spiritual, our hearts/minds are cleansed and made new. We still have to struggle with the sinful nature after the new birth til the day we die or translated.

Mizpeh, are you saying you believe the reason man sins is physiological?

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Adino

Though you might wish my last statement was contradictory to my argument, it simply is not the case. I addressed the issue of an infants faith in a previous post (linked here), which is why I mentioned it.

A brief excerpt:

While Scripture emphatically says that faith is counted for righteousness and that Christ's righteousness is to all and upon all that believe, it does not say that same righteousness is not to all and upon all those depraved souls who die 'innocent.'

This whole thread was brought up in the context of a man being able to live righteously enough to merit a continued justification before God. I said even if a man was able to live completely above sinful deeds he would still need to be justified of the sinful nature which engendered those deeds. The point holds.

Come on, Steve. Go ahead and say the statement I asked you to declare. We know your Adamic nature "has a history" as you put it. We're not talking about those deeds it has engendered in your life. We're talking about the nature itself.

Go ahead and openly declare you believe your nature does not need to be justified before God.

Say it for us:

"I do not need to be justified of my Adamic nature!"

This is precisely what you believe.

You know I do NOT believe that 1Cor. 6:9-11 declares how I am justified In the Name(WB) and Spirit!
Faith in His blood justifies my past and present.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

You know I do NOT believe that 1Cor. 6:9-11 declares how I am justified In the Name(WB) and Spirit!
Faith in His blood justifies my past and present.

But does it justify your Adamic nature? Yes or no?

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Adino

But does it justify your Adamic nature? Yes or no?

NO one said it didn't, certainly I believe that.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

NO one said it didn't, certainly I believe that.

Since you believe the Adamic nature itself needs to be justified, then will you admit that man, who is born with the Adamic nature, needs to be justified of this nature from birth?

Will you now agree that even the newborn needs to be justified of his Adamic nature?