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03-30-2009, 02:10 AM
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Go Dodgers!
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Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JTTNMinistries
We deny the pre-existence of the Son but we affirm the pre-existence of He who came as the Son. 2 Cor 5:19; 1 Tim 3:16 etc etc. |
Essentially the same thing. We are afraid to say the pre-existence of the Son because it would be confused with Trinitarianism a pre-existing Son. But I am ok with saying "the Son pre-existed" as long as it is qualified with "but not as the Son but as He who came AS the Son."
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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03-30-2009, 08:57 AM
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Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
Essentially the same thing. We are afraid to say the pre-existence of the Son because it would be confused with Trinitarianism a pre-existing Son. But I am ok with saying "the Son pre-existed" as long as it is qualified with "but not as the Son but as He who came AS the Son."
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Again very good.
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04-02-2009, 09:26 PM
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Supercalifragilisticexpiali...
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Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
Amen, Jeremy, I may go a bit further though.
This is a good article on the distinction between Father and Son written by Oneness Pentecostal Jason Dulle. http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstu...tsymposium.htm
__________________
"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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04-02-2009, 09:33 PM
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Supercalifragilisticexpiali...
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Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
Many Oneness Pentecostals see the Father/Son distinction as being internal to Jesus Christ 
__________________
"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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04-02-2009, 09:36 PM
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Supercalifragilisticexpiali...
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Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
I agree with this illustration from Dulle - showing the Father/Son distinction is EXTERNAL to Jesus Christ.
I should add, the diagram comes with this disclaimer from Dulle
This diagram of the Son should not be understood to mean that God merely dwelt in Christ like a person dwells in a house. While God was in Christ, the union of the divine and human natures surpasses that of mere indwelling. There was a metaphysical union of the divine and human natures to form one theandric existence; a union that preserved the properties of each nature, yet united them into one person. The metaphysical union is expressed in the diagram by the absence of the black line around the yellow circle (God).
__________________
"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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04-02-2009, 10:10 PM
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Administrator
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Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
Stephen Eureka,
Very interesting. I like the disclaimer from Dulle. Have just read it and not thought it completely through but I have struggled to clearly understand in my own mind the dual nature of Christ as man and God and this seems like one of the best explanations I have heard.
(By the way I thought of ou earlier tonight when my wife came in the room and informed me that our Hoover vacuum cleaner that is less than a year old just bit the dust. They don't make you like they used to. This replaced our expensive Dyson that only lasted a couple of years.)
__________________
"I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
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04-02-2009, 10:25 PM
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Supercalifragilisticexpiali...
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Join Date: Feb 2007
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Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
Glad you enjoyed Jason's article. It helped me a lot as well. Warning! ... if one's goal, or measure of truth is to get as far as possible from those evil Trinitarians it is a BAD view!
About your vacuum... that sucks.
__________________
"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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04-02-2009, 10:56 PM
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Accepts all friends requests
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Posts: 13,609
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Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover
Glad you enjoyed Jason's article. It helped me a lot as well. Warning! ... if one's goal, or measure of truth is to get as far as possible from those evil Trinitarians it is a BAD view!
About your vacuum... that sucks.
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04-03-2009, 06:04 AM
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but made himself of no reputation
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: middle Atlantic region
Posts: 2,091
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Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
Jason's diagram disclaimer supplied by Steven and affirmed by CC1 states the following:
Quote:
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This diagram of the Son should not be understood to mean that God merely dwelt in Christ like a person dwells in a house. While God was in Christ, the union of the divine and human natures surpasses that of mere indwelling. There was a metaphysical union of the divine and human natures to form one theandric existence; a union that preserved the properties of each nature, yet united them into one person. The metaphysical union is expressed in the diagram by the absence of the black line around the yellow circle (God).
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A breakdown of Jason's disclaimer seems to reveal that SILENCE is GOLDEN in the establishment of philosophical opinion.
This diagram of the Son should not be understood to mean that God merely dwelt in Christ like a person dwells in a house.
Jason's assertion that it was not MERELY an indwelling requires he extend his opinion without scriptural witness to help ward off those who would think in terms of either INDWELLING of a person OR INDWELLING of a flesh suit.
While God was in Christ, the union of the divine and human natures surpasses that of mere indwelling.
It's nice to say SURPASSES but when the statement is done, it is fully established by Jason's opinion in the surroundings of academia, not an assertion established in scripture.
There was a metaphysical union of the divine and human natures to form one theandric existence;
It's a thoughtful concept, a deep philosophical dig, but it is a postion established from the silence of a man's imagination not witness of scripture.
a union that preserved the properties of each nature, yet united them into one person.
Supposition at very best. So many scriptural departures from this "preserved properties of each nature" that the next thing his disclaimer really should add is "the divine nature was so perfectly hidden from the human nature that neither had any real idea about the other".....maybe he'll insert that personal opinion later as well.
The metaphysical union is expressed in the diagram by the absence of the black line around the yellow circle (God).
I'm happy for the present confidence in the metaphysical union position and the fully preserved dual nature position because to hold these as establishing one's confidence will also force the proponents of this opinion to ask "How is Jesus my example? my kinsman redeemer"
Our Lord and Saviour is the Son of God.
Quoting the testimony of the voice that on two occasions directly spoke:
This is my beloved Son, in whom, I am well pleased.
With the testimony of the voice speaking from the cloud to back me up.....I am feeling strangely confident to declare God's Son was a person with a will of his own, separate from his father which begat him. But I do accept that all I have is the simple reading of scripture to confirm this position.
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Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath [James 1:19]
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04-03-2009, 06:18 AM
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Registered Member
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Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbpew
A breakdown of Jason's disclaimer:
This diagram of the Son should not be understood to mean that God merely dwelt in Christ like a person dwells in a house.
Jason's assertion that it was not MERELY an indwelling requires he extend his opinion without scriptural witness to help ward off those who would think in terms of either INDWELLING of a person OR INDWELLING of a flesh suit.
While God was in Christ, the union of the divine and human natures surpasses that of mere indwelling.
It's nice to say SURPASSES but when the statement is done, it is fully established by Jason's opinion in the surroundings of academia, not an assertion established in scripture.
There was a metaphysical union of the divine and human natures to form one theandric existence;
It's a thoughtful concept, a deep philosophical dig, but it is a postion established from the silence of a man's imagination not witness of scripture.
a union that preserved the properties of each nature, yet united them into one person.
Supposition at very best. So many scriptural departures from this "preserved properties of each nature" that the next thing his disclaimer really should add is "the divine nature was so perfectly hidden from the human nature that neither had any real idea about the other".....maybe he'll insert that personal opinion later as well.
The metaphysical union is expressed in the diagram by the absence of the black line around the yellow circle (God).
I'm happy for the present confidence in the metaphysical union position and the fully preserved dual nature position because these force every one who is a proponent of such to ask "How is Jesus my example?"
God has a Son.
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Some folks just like being wordy. Neck's Dad who was known as a great Godehead teacher( I had one exception with him but I won't go into that here) was teaching on the subject in depth at a meeting. An AG lady was present and he was trying to reach her. After a couple of hours of excellent teaching on the subject he finished. Standing on the steps with the Pastor as folks were leaving the AG lady shook their hands and said I just don't understand what you were saying. He replied "God who is Spirit that is everywhere made a body and climbed in it so He could die for our sins and we could see Him." She said take me to the water.  Sometimes the simplicity is overlooked. Being a teacher is NOT making the simple complicated but making the complicated simple.
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