Can Women Pastor ?

[Sister Alvear]

The church I visited last night with Brother Alvear many of the MEN came and kissed me on the forehead and thanked me for the sacrifices of years ago...they have not forgotton and I doubt if God has forgotton.

[Sister Alvear]

In fact there were 3 generations present thanking me for coming to them...the other night in another service in another village there were 4 generations that came and thanked me...I never thought about recieving eartly thanks but tears fill my eyes even now...I may have gave...but I am blessed more than I gave to see generations of families that love God...I am soooooooooo blessed...

[Sister Alvear]

Well, to the dismay of some I am heading out to one of the churches to teach a young people's class...I hope to be a blessing...gotta go...

[Sister Alvear]

Well, we had a good class...now let's read something:

[Sister Alvear]

. I Corinthians 14:31-35

T
his Scripture at a glance seems so severe and final. It seems the Apostle leaves no variance. It seems to contradict the rest of the scriptures but as any Bible scholar knows scripture will interpret itself. No doctrine can be based on one scripture alone -such as baptizing for the dead (I Corinthians 15:29). The Bible speaks that for the truth to be established, it must have two or three witnesses. The bottom line is that God is looking for willing vessels independent of gender or color of skin. It is recorded in the Bible that God in times past used not only women, but also children and even animals to fulfill His divine purpose.
Let me say, I’m not promoting a masculine woman. A woman should look like a woman, dress like a woman, and act like a woman. There is nothing as repulsive as a woman who has manly mannerisms. On the other hand, even more detestable is a man who is feminine.
There is nothing more graceful to the eyes as a woman who is feminine or a man who is a real gentleman. Some struggle with the concept of women preachers, as Trinitarians struggle with the oneness of God. Their fundamental problem is in understanding the dual nature of Jesus. Likewise, we need to understand the dual responsibilities of a woman preacher.
Most women have domestic responsibilities as well as spiritual responsibilities. Genesis 1:28, “And God said unto them be fruitful. And multiply and fill the earth and subdue it. And have dominion.” God said they (both) shall have dominion. In other words, God’s original thinking or plan (before the fall) for man and woman, masculine and feminine, was to have authority and dominion together. God did not tell Adam he was to have exclusive dominion, neither did He tell him he was to govern alone. God said that they were to have dominion. That helps us understand I Timothy 2:12 that says suffer not a woman to teach, or take for oneself, grab, take illegally, usurp (define) authority over the man (The man is her husband).
The apostle did not say she shouldn’t have dominion because he knew that in the original plan of God, when man and woman had just come from the Hands of the creator, they both were given dominion. The apostle was not objecting that a woman have dominion but that she could not have dominion over her husband-plain and simple. In God’s original plan, it was wrong for a man to have dominion over a woman. Neither did a woman have dominion over a man. Togetherness and sameness was God’s original concept. This is the perfect plan between the sexes -- more perfect than the Law of Moses that came later.
Note that the Pharisees asked Jesus, if under the Law of Moses it was right to divorce the wife for any reason. Note the response that was given them. “Have you not read from the beginning when God created man and women?” Also note in I Corinthians 14:5-6 “For this cause shall a man leave father and mother and shall cleave to his wife and they twain shall be one flesh. Wherefore there are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.” Jesus took them back to the garden of Eden but the Pharisees did not like it and they took him back to the law of Moses. The Law of Moses was what they lived by, but Jesus was trying to get them to go back before the law of Moses the better and more perfect plan. The reason that Moses made a letter of divorce to put away the wife was “because of the hardness of your hearts he suffered you to put away your wives; but from the beginning it was not so.”
The original plan of God example, “in the garden of Eden” was a better and more perfect plan-the plan before sin. The law of Moses placed certain restrictions upon women.
We all know and admit this. We know a law that’s higher and a concept that is better. We know a plan that is more idealistic than the Law of Moses that it the original condition of things in the Garden of Eden. God gave the man and the woman dominion in conjunction together (Genesis 1:28). This is a better concept and more sublime than the Law of Moses. Someone said that Adam’s wife came from the rib out of his side. If she was made from his head someone could say that she is the head.
She did not come from his feet, so that she could be, stomped on, but came from his side which represents that they have been equally valued. That was God’s original plan. We know that a horrible thing happened in Gen:3 that destroyed God’s ideal, or necessitated a change from the original plan.
Sin thwarted God’s concept of the man and woman’s continuity in the garden. Unto the woman he said: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. After the fall not before the fall God told the woman, “Your husband shall have rule over thee.” He did not rule before the fall. It was a punishment from God because the woman yielded to temptation and ate the fruit.
But remember this was not God’s original plan. This was a part of the penalty of sin. If it was sin, (and it was) that caused the women to be ruled by man, since then the redemption of our Lord Jesus Christ not only redeemed, but also all the consequences that resulted by sin.
The redemption that is in Christ Jesus took all the disadvantages pronounced upon the woman in the Garden of Eden. The redemption of Christ not only paid sin’s consequences at Calvary but transcends to future women. We who participate in redemption today can enjoy and inherit what was lost in Mother Eve.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

. I Corinthians 14:31-35

T
his Scripture at a glance seems so severe and final. It seems the Apostle leaves no variance. It seems to contradict the rest of the scriptures but as any Bible scholar knows scripture will interpret itself. No doctrine can be based on one scripture alone -such as baptizing for the dead (I Corinthians 15:29). The Bible speaks that for the truth to be established, it must have two or three witnesses.

The Bible only mentions "not forsaking the assembling of yourselves together" once. So, should we now discard going to church based upon this supposed "must have 2 or 3 witnesses" hypothesis? The Bible NEVER says "must" have 2 or 3 witnesses. To the contrary, "A-L-L Scripture is...profitavle for doctrine."

The bottom line is that God is looking for willing vessels independent of gender or color of skin. It is recorded in the Bible that God in times past used not only women, but also children and even animals to fulfill His divine purpose.

So now we're employing "animals" to support our doctrines?? I'd say it's time to reconsider our position entirely if this is the case!

Let me say, I’m not promoting a masculine woman. A woman should look like a woman, dress like a woman, and act like a woman. There is nothing as repulsive as a woman who has manly mannerisms. On the other hand, even more detestable is a man who is feminine.
There is nothing more graceful to the eyes as a woman who is feminine or a man who is a real gentleman. Some struggle with the concept of women preachers, as Trinitarians struggle with the oneness of God. Their fundamental problem is in understanding the dual nature of Jesus. Likewise, we need to understand the dual responsibilities of a woman preacher.

Theology, textual evidence please:__________? Your [or pasted comments] presupposes women preachres from the outset...which the very Scripture in question disallows! Amazing.....


Most women have domestic responsibilities as well as spiritual responsibilities. Genesis 1:28, “And God said unto them be fruitful. And multiply and fill the earth and subdue it. And have dominion.” God said they (both) shall have dominion. In other words, God’s original thinking or plan (before the fall) for man and woman, masculine and feminine, was to have authority and dominion together. God did not tell Adam he was to have exclusive dominion, neither did He tell him he was to govern alone. God said that they were to have dominion.

Were Adam & Eve "preachers of the Gospel"?? I deal w/ this in my critique of Scheel's book. Easily shown illogical, not to mention a direct violation of I Cor. 11.

That helps us understand I Timothy 2:12 that says suffer not a woman to teach, or take for oneself, grab, take illegally, usurp (define) authority over the man (The man is her husband).

Eisegesis alert! What text of I Tim. 2 translates this word as "Husband"??? Are we free to just make things up as we go along??


The apostle did not say she shouldn’t have dominion because he knew that in the original plan of God, when man and woman had just come from the Hands of the creator, they both were given dominion. The apostle was not objecting that a woman have dominion but that she could not have dominion over her husband-plain and simple.

Not "plain & simple" at all...particulary when absolutely NO text states this!

In God’s original plan, it was wrong for a man to have dominion over a woman. Neither did a woman have dominion over a man. Togetherness and sameness was God’s original concept. This is the perfect plan between the sexes -- more perfect than the Law of Moses that came later.
Note that the Pharisees asked Jesus, if under the Law of Moses it was right to divorce the wife for any reason. Note the response that was given them. “Have you not read from the beginning when God created man and women?” Also note in I Corinthians 14:5-6 “For this cause shall a man leave father and mother and shall cleave to his wife and they twain shall be one flesh. Wherefore there are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.” Jesus took them back to the garden of Eden but the Pharisees did not like it and they took him back to the law of Moses. The Law of Moses was what they lived by, but Jesus was trying to get them to go back before the law of Moses the better and more perfect plan. The reason that Moses made a letter of divorce to put away the wife was “because of the hardness of your hearts he suffered you to put away your wives; but from the beginning it was not so.”
The original plan of God example, “in the garden of Eden” was a better and more perfect plan-the plan before sin. The law of Moses placed certain restrictions upon women.
We all know and admit this. We know a law that’s higher and a concept that is better. We know a plan that is more idealistic than the Law of Moses that it the original condition of things in the Garden of Eden. God gave the man and the woman dominion in conjunction together (Genesis 1:28). This is a better concept and more sublime than the Law of Moses. Someone said that Adam’s wife came from the rib out of his side. If she was made from his head someone could say that she is the head.
She did not come from his feet, so that she could be, stomped on, but came from his side which represents that they have been equally valued. That was God’s original plan. We know that a horrible thing happened in Gen:3 that destroyed God’s ideal, or necessitated a change from the original plan.
Sin thwarted God’s concept of the man and woman’s continuity in the garden. Unto the woman he said: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. After the fall not before the fall God told the woman, “Your husband shall have rule over thee.” He did not rule before the fall. It was a punishment from God because the woman yielded to temptation and ate the fruit.
But remember this was not God’s original plan. This was a part of the penalty of sin. If it was sin, (and it was) that caused the women to be ruled by man, since then the redemption of our Lord Jesus Christ not only redeemed, but also all the consequences that resulted by sin.
The redemption that is in Christ Jesus took all the disadvantages pronounced upon the woman in the Garden of Eden. The redemption of Christ not only paid sin’s consequences at Calvary but transcends to future women. We who participate in redemption today can enjoy and inherit what was lost in Mother Eve.

As usual, all theology & no textual interaction w/ I Tim. 2:11-15, other than to try & explain away the natural ramifications of the passage.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by rdp

As usual, all theology & no textual interaction w/ I Tim. 2:11-15, other than to try & explain away the natural ramifications of the passage.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

It is funny you making so much out of these two passages putting words and definitions into todays society. First to preach was to herald the gospel to those that did not or had not heard it. Nowhere can you find this being from a pulpit in a building setting in front of a congregation of people as we do things today. Your rants and raves about women pastors and not having authority over men is a moot point when the church government is in proper order as exampled in the word of God.

When we don't consider the history and customs of the day the bible was written and try to bring it down to our day without realizing that customs change as do the meaning of words.

Take the word church when we think of church we see a building with pews and a platform etc. When the word church is used in scripture it had nothing to do with a building. If you want to keep your women supressed join a cult where they only have women for the purpose of having children and keeping house, but God never intended for the women to be a lower part of mankind. Futher more if you want to obey these passages in this light then I hope you are obeying these passages too.

Deu 5:13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:
Deu 5:14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work

Deu 23:2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

Deu 25:5 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her.

Lev 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Lev 20:25 Ye shall therefore put difference between clean beasts and unclean, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean.

[Sister Alvear]

The man ruling over the woman is not natural (original state of things), it is abnormal - a result of sin. It is like death. Death is not natural, it is abnormal - a result of sin. I’ve heard people say that some person died a natural death. Death may be common, but it is not natural. God planned that we should live forever, so death is not natural. One day it will be swallowed up in victory (1 Corinthians 15:55). The woman has been governed by the man ever since the fall so it may sound common and seem natural but that was not God’s original plan.
Not in domestic life, but a spiritual view point concerning spiritual things. In the first resurrection the situation above mentioned will be mended.
The woman was put under a divine order to be subject to her husband. We all know that, and no godly woman would disagree. Paul’s teaching on a woman’s obedience to the husband is based on the precept of loving his wife as Christ loved the church. He gave His life for it.
Paul recognized and taught that men and women are heirs together in grace. I Corinthians 12:13: For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and all have been - all made to drink into one Spirit. Ephesians 6-8: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall receive of the Lord, Whether he be bond or free. Colossians 3:10-11: And have put on the new man, Which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him. Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcison, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
And let the peace of God rule in your heart, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord (Colossians 3:15-16).
It is interesting to note that God provided for Adam a “helpmeet” (help meet). Meet also means suitable so, a help suitable for him. It is only where true Christianity is practiced that the woman attains to such a position as the helper or equal of man. In lands where darkness reigns, woman is the slave, the chattel of man. The Hebrew word helpmeet means, the exact counterpart of himself, or the exact formulation of the other.
God did not create Eve to be Adam’s servant, but created her to be an equal companion. God created another being like Adam for companionship. Even when God created the animals, fowls, and fish, the females were not slaves to their male counterparts. This requires equality of mutuality. The two earthlings would share the same tasks and responsibilities. Genesis 1:28: And God blessed them, and God said unto them, be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
The Hebrew term “eler” translated as “helper” does carry a connotation of assistance, but whether the help comes from a superior or an inferior cannot be determined without context. The term describing what the woman does for Adam can also refer to what God does for the people (Psalm 33:20; 54:4; 70:5; 79:9; 109:26; 115:9-1-1). Clearly this kind of help does not denote servitude or subservience.
This term does not imply that the woman was in any way inferior to the man or the human creature. The word simply ascribes a beneficial relationship between two parties in which one helps the other. There is no sense in which the helper is subordinate to the one in need of help. If the man is superior, why would he need any help at all from one who is inferior. Isn’t it usually the inferior that requires help from the superior? As a doctor who is superior in medical knowledge reaches out to help an inferior, his sickly patient.
The word “helper” translates better as “Partner” since it is used in the Old Testament to denote an agent of equal or even superior strength. God is the only other entity to whom the Old Testament applies the word. For example: Psalm 46:1, “A time of help in trouble”, Deuteronomy 33:26, “Rides the heaven to your rescue”, and Psalm 70:5, “My helper, my Savior, Yahweh.”

[Sister Alvear]

The women in the Old Testament had a tremendous disadvantage. As we continue to read God’s Word, we can slowly see the dignity of the woman being restored. Even with the devil furiously fighting against her, there were occasions when she rose above her disadvantages showing a marvelous manifestation of courage and, on several occasions exercising notable ministries.
We may want to hide from these stories. They are sometimes unpleasant in the extreme. They raise issues we may wish to avoid or deny. Yet they are stories of the lives of women who lived as we live in an abusive, even hostile world. We will study stories that speak the truth bringing the light of day into a darkened world, uncovering sins - that permeated lives.
The Bible tells about women used in leadership and their proclamation of faith. There have always been women who transcended the boundaries that their society placed upon them. There have always been women whose faith motivated them to acts of courage and to powerful ministries that made them known and felt. These stories teach us undeniable truth.
Women can be and should be effective servants of God in every spiritual dimension. Women of the Old Testament faith were preachers, proclaimers, wealthy and powerful supporters, prophetesses, military heroes and judges.
These ancient women of faith were average people with normal lives who found ways to serve God in every facet of their lives. We need to shake aside the shackles of bureaucratic structures which chain the tongues of over half the Christian believers.
The problem that women preachers face today is not the lack of God’s call but traditions which men have developed that resist her call. Eternity alone will reveal the extent of the influence of women whose spirit came to rejoice in God their Savior and who, having discovered the well of life, left their waterpots to go and tell of the gospel story.
When Jesus entered upon His earthly ministry, women intently responded to His teachings, sympathized with Him in His darkest hours and found in Him their benefactor and friend. Women were the last to leave the cross, first at the tomb on Christ’s resurrection day, and the first to proclaim the glorious news of His victory over the grave.
In the annals of the early church, women are likewise notable for their spiritual devotion, fidelity, in teaching the Word of God, and sacrificial support of God’s servants. Their faith and prayers were mingled with those of the apostles in preparation for Pentecost and through out Christian era. The church owes more than it realizes to the prayers, loyalty and gifts of its female members. From the time when women labored with Paul in the gospel (Philippians 4:3), religious leaders have been dependent upon the miniseries of women. Gifted and consecrated women figure prominently in the labors of Paul. Owing much to the Redeemer for her spiritual freedom and ennoblement, woman has endeavored to pay her debt in unreserved devotion to Him who was born of a woman.
Bible women form the most remarkable portrait gallery of women preachers in existence. Many of them are among the immortals, whose records shine brightly for us in God’s biography of humanity.
One of the reasons that religious leaders were against Jesus was that He did not accept the Jewish traditions that were accepted by almost everyone else. For example, Jesus healed on the Sabbath, dined with sinners, talked with women who were not of the Jewish race. He not only talked with them, but taught them - something unheard of in His day. Jesus sent His disciples to gather corn on the Sabbath (Mark 2:3-28). He healed on the Sabbath; He broke many of their rules proving that traditions of men are not the laws of God!
Christ seemly considered Himself Lord of “traditions”. Whenever tradition hinders or prevents the work of Christ, it is necessary to dismiss that tradition.
Paul taught the Galatians freedom and liberty in the Spirit. In Christ there is no racial or ethnic superiority. No culture or class superiority, no gender superiority (Galatians 3:28). Paul taught the gifts are for all (I Corinthians 12:27-28; II Corinthians 5:20).
Women like men can pray and prophesy in the congregation. By prophesying, Paul meant intelligible preaching that built up the faith of the church.
When tradition hinders or prevents the work of Christ, it is necessary to alter that tradition. The perpetuation of a tradition that no longer serves humanity but dictates to how one should do something then thwarts the purposes of God’s church. It is then the tradition is in conflict with the will of God.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

The women in the Old Testament had a tremendous disadvantage. As we continue to read God’s Word, we can slowly see the dignity of the woman being restored. Even with the devil furiously fighting against her, there were occasions when she rose above her disadvantages showing a marvelous manifestation of courage and, on several occasions exercising notable ministries.
We may want to hide from these stories. They are sometimes unpleasant in the extreme. They raise issues we may wish to avoid or deny. Yet they are stories of the lives of women who lived as we live in an abusive, even hostile world. We will study stories that speak the truth bringing the light of day into a darkened world, uncovering sins - that permeated lives.
The Bible tells about women used in leadership and their proclamation of faith. There have always been women who transcended the boundaries that their society placed upon them. There have always been women whose faith motivated them to acts of courage and to powerful ministries that made them known and felt. These stories teach us undeniable truth.
Women can be and should be effective servants of God in every spiritual dimension. Women of the Old Testament faith were preachers, proclaimers, wealthy and powerful supporters, prophetesses, military heroes and judges.
These ancient women of faith were average people with normal lives who found ways to serve God in every facet of their lives. We need to shake aside the shackles of bureaucratic structures which chain the tongues of over half the Christian believers.
The problem that women preachers face today is not the lack of God’s call but traditions which men have developed that resist her call. Eternity alone will reveal the extent of the influence of women whose spirit came to rejoice in God their Savior and who, having discovered the well of life, left their waterpots to go and tell of the gospel story.
When Jesus entered upon His earthly ministry, women intently responded to His teachings, sympathized with Him in His darkest hours and found in Him their benefactor and friend. Women were the last to leave the cross, first at the tomb on Christ’s resurrection day, and the first to proclaim the glorious news of His victory over the grave.
In the annals of the early church, women are likewise notable for their spiritual devotion, fidelity, in teaching the Word of God, and sacrificial support of God’s servants. Their faith and prayers were mingled with those of the apostles in preparation for Pentecost and through out Christian era. The church owes more than it realizes to the prayers, loyalty and gifts of its female members. From the time when women labored with Paul in the gospel (Philippians 4:3), religious leaders have been dependent upon the miniseries of women. Gifted and consecrated women figure prominently in the labors of Paul. Owing much to the Redeemer for her spiritual freedom and ennoblement, woman has endeavored to pay her debt in unreserved devotion to Him who was born of a woman.
Bible women form the most remarkable portrait gallery of women preachers in existence. Many of them are among the immortals, whose records shine brightly for us in God’s biography of humanity.
One of the reasons that religious leaders were against Jesus was that He did not accept the Jewish traditions that were accepted by almost everyone else. For example, Jesus healed on the Sabbath, dined with sinners, talked with women who were not of the Jewish race. He not only talked with them, but taught them - something unheard of in His day. Jesus sent His disciples to gather corn on the Sabbath (Mark 2:3-28). He healed on the Sabbath; He broke many of their rules proving that traditions of men are not the laws of God!
Christ seemly considered Himself Lord of “traditions”. Whenever tradition hinders or prevents the work of Christ, it is necessary to dismiss that tradition.
Paul taught the Galatians freedom and liberty in the Spirit. In Christ there is no racial or ethnic superiority. No culture or class superiority, no gender superiority (Galatians 3:28). Paul taught the gifts are for all (I Corinthians 12:27-28; II Corinthians 5:20).
Women like men can pray and prophesy in the congregation. By prophesying, Paul meant intelligible preaching that built up the faith of the church.
When tradition hinders or prevents the work of Christ, it is necessary to alter that tradition. The perpetuation of a tradition that no longer serves humanity but dictates to how one should do something then thwarts the purposes of God’s church. It is then the tradition is in conflict with the will of God.

Again, very little textual interaction, but just theology. I could sit & show the error of each statement, but simply do not have the time to waste.

I've given the lexical definition of "prophecy" repeatedly, & yet ya'll just keep screaming "It means preach!!!" Sorry, Paul had already explicitly forbade that practice by women in the church. I have shown over & over that prophecy is NOT a sermon from the Scriptures, but rather the spontaneous/supernatural moving of God's Spirit upon an individual, as demonstrated ad nauseum in the Biblical record. To this [& sooooo much more], you just keep saying, "It means preach!!!"????? Sorry, I'll believe the Bible over one's theology anyday.