The Biblical response to ACTS 2:38

[Sam]

Originally Posted by bishoph

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I agree that Acts 2:38 tells us what 'Must" happen! However, the historical evidence in the rest of the book tells us "how" that "must" was fulfilled. In all but one case that any received the Holy Ghost, it was evidenced specifically by speaking with tongues, and IMHO it is easy to deduct from all of the other instances that the Samaritan's experience was the same.
...
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There are about (don't remember the actual number right now) 20 accounts of conversion/salvation in the Book of Acts and several times it is recorded that the experience was followed by water and/or Spirit baptism.

[snicker1986]

Originally Posted by bishoph

Remember that when the report was given to the Jerusalem council concerning Cornelius and his household they identified tongues as the "proof" that the Holy Ghost had fallen on the gentiles the same as it had on the Day of Pentecost. Therefore, it is reasonable to say that every time the writer of the book of Acts says someone received the Holy Ghost they are making that statement based on what they had established as the "initial" sign. If there had been any other "alternative" proof of having received the Holy Ghost it would have been noted.

I appreciate your thoughtful response.

There is no doubt that the report of tongues was used to "prove" to the Jerusalem council that a GENTILE had in fact recieved the Holy Spirit. I beleive that proof was required simply because of the unique nature of this occurance. This was BIG NEWS to the council - Jesus was for everyone, not just Jews (although Jesus himself had said as much).

I am intriguied by the original poster's point, that acts 2:41 says nothing about tongues being spoken or present among the 3000. As I said, God does use tongues in a mighty way, and I beleive that it is the fullness of the promised infilling, but it was ALWAYS instant when it happened and was recorded (and still is today sometimes), never a months or years long process of tarrying at an altar week in and week out. That troubled me when I first came to pentecost, and still does

[Sam]

Originally Posted by snicker1986

...
I am intriguied by the original poster's point, that acts 2:41 says nothing about tongues being spoken or present among the 3000. As I said, God does use tongues in a mighty way, and I believe that it is the fullness of the promised infilling, but it was ALWAYS instant when it happened and was recorded (and still is today sometimes), never a months or years long process of tarrying at an altar week in and week out. That troubled me when I first came to pentecost, and still does

OK, stop and think about what happened on the Day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts chapter 2.

There were originally over 500 believers who saw Jesus (1 Corinthians 15:6). 120 of these believers (what's that, about one fourth) were waiting in Jerusalem for an empowering of the Spirit that Jesus referred to as a baptism in the Spirit. As these 120 were gathered together (probably in the Temple) about 9 a.m. the Holy Spirit fell upon them and they began to speak with tongues. This was not their salvation experience. They were already followers of Jesus and had previously ministered in His name/authority. This was an added clothing/enduement of power to do His work.

A crowd gathered and some heard these Spirit filled disciples speaking in tongues and some actually understood what was being said.

Peter stood up and explained that this was a fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecy of Joel that God was now pouring out His Spirit upon all. He continued and preached the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. He concluded with what is recorded in Acts 2:38-40. He told those hearing him:
1. Repent, turn from sin to God, call on Him for mercy, (in other words, get saved)
2. Then follow up that salvation/deliverance experience with baptism/mikveh
3. Then, you also can receive this same enduement or empowering of the Holy Spirit, this promise of the Father, that you have seen demonstrated earlier today.

About 3000 joined themselves to them by believing in Jesus and being baptized.

How many of these 3000 also received the Holy Ghost Baptism? We don't know. It's not recorded. We assume some of them did at that time or later but we don't know that for sure. But, however many of the 3000 who did not receive the Holy Ghost baptism were just as saved as the 380 of the original 500 believers who did not receive the Holy Ghost Baptism.

The agonizing tarrying that we've imposed on people is based on a couple of premises. One is that because 120 people waited/tarried for 10 days to receive the Holy Ghost Baptism that was some kind of a pattern for us today. In the program of God, He had planned to pour out His Spirit universally on Pentecost AD 30. That's when He did it. They could not have received the experience in 3 or 4 or 9 days because God planned it for Pentecost. We've also equated that experience of Pentecost with salvation while it was separate from and subsequent to the salvation of those 120 people. The Holy Ghost wasn't poured out on 120 sinners to save them but was poured out on 120 believers to empower them. After Pentecost if/when people were filled with or baptized in the Spirit, it ordinarily happened by just an outpouring or by hands laid upon them -not after protracted begging, pleading, worshiping, and praising.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sam

OK, stop and think about what happened on the Day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts chapter 2.

There were originally over 500 believers who saw Jesus (1 Corinthians 15:6). 120 of these believers (what's that, about one fourth) were waiting in Jerusalem for an empowering of the Spirit that Jesus referred to as a baptism in the Spirit. As these 120 were gathered together (probably in the Temple) about 9 a.m. the Holy Spirit fell upon them and they began to speak with tongues. This was not their salvation experience. They were already followers of Jesus and had previously ministered in His name/authority. This was an added clothing/enduement of power to do His work.

A crowd gathered and some heard these Spirit filled disciples speaking in tongues and some actually understood what was being said.

Peter stood up and explained that this was a fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecy of Joel that God was now pouring out His Spirit upon all. He continued and preached the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. He concluded with what is recorded in Acts 2:38-40. He told those hearing him:
1. Repent, turn from sin to God, call on Him for mercy, (in other words, get saved)
2. Then follow up that salvation/deliverance experience with baptism/mikveh
3. Then, you also can receive this same enduement or empowering of the Holy Spirit, this promise of the Father, that you have seen demonstrated earlier today.

About 3000 joined themselves to them by believing in Jesus and being baptized.

How many of these 3000 also received the Holy Ghost Baptism? We don't know. It's not recorded. We assume some of them did at that time or later but we don't know that for sure. But, however many of the 3000 who did not receive the Holy Ghost baptism were just as saved as the 380 of the original 500 believers who did not receive the Holy Ghost Baptism.

The agonizing tarrying that we've imposed on people is based on a couple of premises. One is that because 120 people waited/tarried for 10 days to receive the Holy Ghost Baptism that was some kind of a pattern for us today. In the program of God, He had planned to pour out His Spirit universally on Pentecost AD 30. That's when He did it. They could not have received the experience in 3 or 4 or 9 days because God planned it for Pentecost. We've also equated that experience of Pentecost with salvation while it was separate from and subsequent to the salvation of those 120 people. The Holy Ghost wasn't poured out on 120 sinners to save them but was poured out on 120 believers to empower them. After Pentecost if/when people were filled with or baptized in the Spirit, it ordinarily happened by just an outpouring or by hands laid upon them -not after protracted begging, pleading, worshiping, and praising.

Great post Sam!

[snicker1986]

Originally Posted by Sam

About 3000 joined themselves to them by believing in Jesus and being baptized.

How many of these 3000 also received the Holy Ghost Baptism? We don't know. It's not recorded. We assume some of them did at that time or later but we don't know that for sure. But, however many of the 3000 who did not receive the Holy Ghost baptism were just as saved as the 380 of the original 500 believers who did not receive the Holy Ghost Baptism.

An excellent summary!

[BroGary]

Originally Posted by bishoph

Remember that when the report was given to the Jerusalem council concerning Cornelius and his household they identified tongues as the "proof" that the Holy Ghost had fallen on the gentiles the same as it had on the Day of Pentecost. Therefore, it is reasonable to say that every time the writer of the book of Acts says someone received the Holy Ghost they are making that statement based on what they had established as the "initial" sign. If there had been any other "alternative" proof of having received the Holy Ghost it would have been noted.

Amen, simply put and very true !

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by bishoph

While there is no doubt that some things are commanded/prescribed and other things are descriptive.....there are descriptive things that also explain how the prescribed is fulfilled or what some would call the normative response/pattern. IMHO the bolded statement is what makes your conclusion false.

I agree that Acts 2:38 tells us what 'Must" happen! However, the historical evidence in the rest of the book tells us "how" that "must" was fulfilled. In all but one case that any received the Holy Ghost, it was evidenced specifically by speaking with tongues, and IMHO it is easy to deduct from all of the other instances that the Samaritan's experience was the same.

Remember that when the report was given to the Jerusalem council concerning Cornelius and his household they identified tongues as the "proof" that the Holy Ghost had fallen on the gentiles the same as it had on the Day of Pentecost. Therefore, it is reasonable to say that every time the writer of the book of Acts says someone received the Holy Ghost they are making that statement based on what they had established as the "initial" sign. If there had been any other "alternative" proof of having received the Holy Ghost it would have been noted.

Luke, "the writer of the book of Acts" uses the phrase filled with the Holy Ghost many times in his writing. Would you say tounges were present in ALL instances? Do you read more into the meaning of Luke's words than He did himself?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by snicker1986

Thank You!!

This is the most concise description I have ever seen of what I have long beleived.

I DO beleive that tongues is an experience that God gives us to confirm is presence with us, and bring us closer to him, but I have NEVER gotten a good explanation for how one could be repentant, have his sins washed away, and yet end up in hell.

In scriptural study, one must always identify passages as descriptive (things that DID happen) from perscriptive (things that MUST happen). Tongues on receiving the holy Ghost, as noted in the 4 Acts stories that are used to show tongues as evidence, are things that DID happen. Acts 2:38 tells us what MUST happen.

Some would say everything that DID happen MUST happen again, but passages about the OT patriarchs multiple wives and concubines were clearly historic descriptions and not an instruction to us today. So to the descriptions in Acts of the early church living communally.

Dont get me wrong...Tongues are to be desired for spiritual growth, and should be taught.....but not as salvational

The tongues that DID happen show what happens when someone receives the Spirit

The MUST happen is...you MUST receive the Spirit.

Patriarchs having multiple wives is not an example of something happening when one is filled with the Spirit.

[freeatlast]

I am of the belief that if tongues were the only bonifide sign a person has receved the spirit it would work

The examples in the bible, when tongues were used as a sign, it just happened. no coachng, no one told them, now you are going to speak in tongues.

We see no examples in the book at failed attempts to "Get It"

No examples of alter workers jiggling jaws, praying in seekers ears,

No examples of someone being told, that was really a nice try, you almost got it, come back and try again next Sunday night. BTW pray and fast all week and try to make yourself better or good enough so God can come into your life.

We make a mockery of grace, mercy and forgivness when we tell people they have to make themselves good enough for God to save.

While we were yet sinners, He loved us and paid for our sin.

[snicker1986]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

We make a mockery of grace, mercy and forgivness when we tell people they have to make themselves good enough for God to save.

AMEN!!