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Old 12-04-2008, 07:11 PM
SDG SDG is offline
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Re: Pitfalls in Solely Relying on Acts for doctrin

Some thoughts by others on interpreting using historical narratives and formulating doctrine:

Proper biblical hermeneutics

(1) always plays a major part in biblical interpretation. One primary hermeneutical principle that is especially germane to this discussion is historical narrative versus didactic (teaching) portions of Scripture.
(2) Since there are different genres of literature in Scripture, each must be seen in its own context and interpreted in light of its own literary principles. To be sure, there is a difference between historical narrative and didactic genres, and it is important to know which is which and to know how to interpret them accordingly. But, an oversimplified view is that doctrines can only be derived from didactic portions of Scripture while historical narratives serve only to show us what transpired for others in those historical events. Perhaps the best way to clarify this is to give examples of each.

Historical Narrative Example- When the historical narrative in Exodus tells us that Moses struck a rock with his staff and water came out, are we then to assume that all believers can strike a rock to have water? God is speaking to Moses, and he says:“I will stand there before you by the rock at Horeb. Strike the rock, and water will come out of it for the people to drink.” So Moses did this in the sight of the elders of Israel (Exodus 17:6).

However, one narrative does not a doctrine make. Something must be repeated to establish a norm (a “have-to pattern”). Furthermore, this “thing” must be consistent each time it is repeated. It is interesting that this “water from a rock” did not happen only once. It happened again.

In the book of Numbers, it says:Then Moses raised his arm and struck the rock twice with his staff. Water gushed out, and the community and their livestock drank (Numbers 20:11).(3)However, even with two separate accounts of Moses striking a rock to retrieve water, this narrative description of what happened should not be treated as though it were a prescription for “the way to get water.” And, as far as I know, no thoughtful Christian believes that we can simply take a stick and hit a rock for our water needs.Though this is an extreme example of how not to build doctrines on narratives, the point should be clear.

Narrative passages of Scripture are often only descriptive, i.e., describing how some people did something and not prescriptive, i.e., prescribing how all people must do something.

Didactic Example- Now, let’s review a didactic portion of Scripture. If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God (1 Corinthians 14:27-28).In this didactic (teaching) portion of Scripture, Paul is addressing the Corinthians, and he is explaining to them how they should conduct their worship service. Since this is a direct teaching, we can see and accept its universal application for all Christians for all times. When something is for all Christians for all times, then we call that a “norm” (or “normative”). It is something that should (must) be done by all Christians, and when they do not do it, they are out of line.

However, in our narrative passage of Moses and the rock, we would not see that as a norm. The water-from-the-rock situation was unique to Moses. Nowhere is there a didactic portion of Scripture that commands all Christians to strike rocks for water. Therefore, it is not a “norm.” It is simply a record (narrative) of how God dealt with Moses in particular times at particular places.

Two More Examples - It appears that Peter had a particular ministry that was unique to him. The historical narrative of the book of Acts gives us this account:As a result, people brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats so that at least Peter’s shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by (Acts 5:15).Peter had a “Shadow Ministry,”(4) and no one assumes that this is a norm. This passage is not prescribing how Christians are to heal the sick; it is simply recounting this unique experience in Peter’s life.

Speaking of Peter, he himself, however, writes didactically to all Christians when he says,Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind. Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, now that you have tasted that the Lord is good (1 Pet. 2:1-3).In this passage Peter gives instructions that are normative for all Christians for all time. Unlike Moses’ rock-and-water experience, which is only descriptive, Peter’s instructions are prescriptive. Here is a simple table that may help clarify the two.

NARRATIVE ------------------ and ------------------ DIDACTIC
A story ------------------------------------------------- A teaching
Descriptive -------------------------------------------Prescriptive
Normal for some ----------------------------------- A norm for all

The Twist - However, it is not as simple as saying, “Doctrines can only be derived from didactic portions of Scripture and never narrative portions of Scripture.” If the discussion were that simple, we would be able to simply state that the book of Acts is a historical narrative, and, thus, no doctrines can be built from it. That then, would end the debate. But, the church has legitimately established some of its doctrines and practices via historical narrative.

As Fee points out, the Baptists (and some others) insist on baptism by immersion. This practice, however, is not based on any clear didactic portion of Scripture, but rather upon a word study of the word baptize and upon historical narrative. Why does the church meet each Sunday for services? What didactic portion of Scripture establishes that routine for our church practice? Upon what New Testament didactic portion of Scripture does the church teach and support the practice of tithing?

Furthermore, New Testament writers did use Old Testament narratives for didactic instruction. In fact, Paul seems to imply as much when he says, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Also, in Romans 15:4, Paul says, “For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.”

So, historical narrative does have didactic value; the issue is how do we legitimately exegete doctrine and practice from historical narrative?If we conclude that doctrines may be derived from historical narrative (and I do), we cannot then simply say, “Well, there you go. Since we can use that hermeneutical principle, then speaking in tongues is the initial, physical evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit.”

You see, even when we conclude that doctrines can be built from historical narratives, shall we then institute the “water-from-rocks ministry,” or the “shadow-healing ministry”? Obviously not.

In Paraclete, Roger Stronstad gives a weighty argument for “The Biblical Precedent for Historical Precedent”(5) (i.e., building doctrines from narratives). However, in the same issue of Paraclete, Gordon Fee supplies a strong rejoinder in which he offers several cautions concerning this hermeneutical principle.(6) In essence, if doctrines are to be built upon narrative portions of Scripture, many caveats come into play. After an ongoing discussion on this topic, Gordon Fee eloquently expresses my concern:At issue, as I perceive it, is whether historical precedent may serve in a normative way for the establishing of Christian doctrine. I have expressed concern on this issue; and as Roger [Stronstad] has indicated, “considerable criticism” has been levied against my articulation of things. But I must confess that in all of that criticism, I have failed to find a hermeneutical articulation that took me by the hand and showed me how one goes about doing this—that is, establishing something normative on the basis of historical precedent alone (emphasis added).(7)So, while there may be legitimacy in building doctrine from narrative passages alone, there is yet to be a definitive hermeneutical statement on how that is properly done.

http://www.columbiaseminary.org/coffeetalk/091.html
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Old 12-05-2008, 10:13 AM
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Re: Pitfalls in Solely Relying on Acts for doctrin

I am an ole timmer and most know that but I did have to laugh at something that happened one of the times I was in the states. My sister came to hear me speak and brought a friend from a luthern church with her. The service was very lively after it was over the Luthern lady ask my sister what the people were running after...
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Old 12-05-2008, 02:14 PM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Re: Pitfalls in Solely Relying on Acts for doctrin

Dan, I haven't spoken in tongues since I was filled with the Spirit. How do you explain that?

I explain it by going to Corinthians and saying that, in context, Paul is speaking specifically about the gifts of the Spirit and especially the gift of tongues and not what happens when a believer receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit. God gives the manifestation of His Spirit through the gifts to each born again believer, severally as He sees fit. That is why Paul can ask with the expected answer to be in the negative...do all speak with tongues? I spoke with tongues but I haven't for years. If you believe those who speak in tongues have the gift of tongues then I have to ask, Did God take the gift of tongues away from me?
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Old 12-05-2008, 02:19 PM
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Re: Pitfalls in Solely Relying on Acts for doctrin

Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
Dan, I haven't spoken in tongues since I was filled with the Spirit. How do you explain that?

I explain it by going to Corinthians and saying that, in context, Paul is speaking specifically about the gifts of the Spirit and especially the gift of tongues and not what happens when a believer receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit. God gives the manifestation of His Spirit through the gifts to each born again believer, severally as He sees fit. That is why Paul can ask with the expected answer to be in the negative...do all speak with tongues? I spoke with tongues but I haven't for years. If you believe those who speak in tongues have the gift of tongues then I have to ask, Did God take the gift of tongues away from me?
Is there any scripture that separates the "initial evidence" of tongues from either prayer language, or the gift of tongues?
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Old 12-05-2008, 02:29 PM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Re: Pitfalls in Solely Relying on Acts for doctrin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Phelps View Post
Is there any scripture that separates the "initial evidence" of tongues from either prayer language, or the gift of tongues?
No scripture but Context.

Did God take the gift of tongues away from me?

(I know that this is not a question you want to answer, Michael. You will feel like you are judging my spirituality. Sorry to put you in a difficult spot.)
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Old 12-05-2008, 02:30 PM
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Re: Pitfalls in Solely Relying on Acts for doctrin

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Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
Context.

Did God take the gift of tongues away from me?
Lol, I won't discuss that.

My question is a sidebar, I won't hijack the thread.
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Old 12-05-2008, 02:51 PM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Re: Pitfalls in Solely Relying on Acts for doctrin

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Originally Posted by Michael Phelps View Post
Lol, I won't discuss that.

My question is a sidebar, I won't hijack the thread.
I think you should discuss it with me. Surely you've discussed this question with others when you were a pastor. It's a tangent but it really is what Dan is getting at in his round about fashion.
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Old 12-05-2008, 02:35 PM
El Predicador El Predicador is offline
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Re: Pitfalls in Solely Relying on Acts for doctrin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Phelps View Post
Is there any scripture that separates the "initial evidence" of tongues from either prayer language, or the gift of tongues?
While I would not use personal experience as definite proof of a doctrine I DO agree with Sister Mizpeh as far as the answer of CONTEXT

The incidents chronicled in Acts were response to hearing and acting on the gospel.

Epistles were written to saints from their pastor, in Corinthians to instruct on gifts on the spirit and how they are to be used to edify the church.
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Old 12-05-2008, 02:37 PM
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Re: Pitfalls in Solely Relying on Acts for doctrin

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Originally Posted by El Predicador View Post
While I would not use personal experience as definite proof of a doctrine I DO agree with Sister Mizpeh as far as the answer of CONTEXT

The incidents chronicled in Acts were response to hearing and acting on the gospel.

Epistles were written to saints from their pastor, in Corinthians to instruct on gifts on the spirit and how they are to be used to edify the church.
But, once again, we're making assumptions that there are different types of tongues.

BUt, as I said, I won't discuss that here, it's a thread hijacker. I'll start another thread, maybe!
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Old 12-05-2008, 02:40 PM
El Predicador El Predicador is offline
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Re: Pitfalls in Solely Relying on Acts for doctrin

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Originally Posted by Michael Phelps View Post
But, once again, we're making assumptions that there are different types of tongues.

BUt, as I said, I won't discuss that here, it's a thread hijacker. I'll start another thread, maybe!
Trying to stay on topic would make you a novel forum poster.

LOL

Hopefully the original premise, that the Book of the Acts of the Apostles is basically useless for teaching theology has been debunked.
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