Everybody must have a pastor? - Page 10

mfblume · #91 01-20-2016, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

???

We take guidance from other people and submit to it, but it is not people lording over us whatsoever. We recognize the fact God uses people to direct us. Everyone should be able to go to someone in our lives who can correct us if we stray. And we should be humble enough to accept that.

thephnxman · #92 01-20-2016, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

We take guidance from other people and submit to it, but it is not people lording over us whatsoever. We recognize the fact God uses people to direct us. Everyone should be able to go to someone in our lives who can correct us if we stray. And we should be humble enough to accept that.

"As many as are led by the Spirit..."

Yes, Brother, and we need one another's guidance. But we must first be
sensitive to the voice of God to discern His voice, and the one speaking
should also be speaking by the Spirit.

"...they are the sons of God."

Esaias · #93 01-20-2016, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

We take guidance from other people and submit to it, but it is not people lording over us whatsoever. We recognize the fact God uses people to direct us. Everyone should be able to go to someone in our lives who can correct us if we stray. And we should be humble enough to accept that.

Having someone "to go to who can correct us" with no additional definition seems a little vague?

Who is to be the "someone"? What is a "ministry covering"? Does it work the same for a regular saint as it does for, say, a pastor of a church? So the pastor has friends who can give him honest, critical advice. So could a regular saint say "I have friends who keep me in check and advise me" without the pastor being one of those particular friends?

mfblume · #94 01-20-2016, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

Having someone "to go to who can correct us" with no additional definition seems a little vague?

Who is to be the "someone"? What is a "ministry covering"? Does it work the same for a regular saint as it does for, say, a pastor of a church? So the pastor has friends who can give him honest, critical advice. So could a regular saint say "I have friends who keep me in check and advise me" without the pastor being one of those particular friends?

The rule applies to EVERYONE. Pastor means SHEPHERD. People are called to be pastors. And sheep are in the fold. So, if a member of a congregation does not have the pastor as one of those in the church to whom he can go for advice, then the pastor is not his or her pastor. Pastors and congregation members all need someone to go to.

mfblume · #95 01-20-2016, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thephnxman

"As many as are led by the Spirit..."

Yes, Brother, and we need one another's guidance. But we must first be
sensitive to the voice of God to discern His voice, and the one speaking
should also be speaking by the Spirit.

"...they are the sons of God."

Amen, but that is a given.

mfblume · #96 01-20-2016, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YounginHope

"P.S. individuals can think to highly of their pastor, to the point they don't question and search the word for their self. Others can struggle with a independent and rebellious spirit who don't want to follow anyone and choose to go to the school of hard knocks."

This is truth, imo. Almost to the point that they believe the pastor has the ability to save or condemn to hell. I fall in the other category where I'm probably too independent and suffer because of it.

Good points. Either extreme is wrong.

mfblume · #97 01-20-2016, 09:41 PM

The fullest picture of the authority of God in church members is the BODY.

1Co 12:12-21 KJV For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. (13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (14) For the body is not one member, but many. (15) If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? (16) And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? (17) If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? (18) But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. (19) And if they were all one member, where were the body? (20) But now are they many members, yet but one body. (21) And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

Each part of the body gets it's direction from the head. Christ is our Head. And Christ will work through the hand and the foot and the hand and foot must cooperate together. The hand cannot reject the direction of the head through the foot. That's why I've been insisting it is not the person we are submitting to so much as the Lord IN the person.

When we reject something coming from another person whom the Lord uses to direct us, we are actually rejecting the Lord. Nobody is saying people obey people, period. the directives from one member of the body to another is the head making that direction, and it is instruction or the other member to serve God and not the person. A true member of the body giving us direction will see us serve God more and not serve that person more.

To be one's own pastor like someone here said is like the foot saying I am the hand as well as a foot. No. SOME have the pastoral gift ministry, not all. And those of us who don't have it need to yield to it in another person, as much as a pastor has to allow someone with an evangelistic gift ministry to do that function, although we do read we can each fulfill SOME of these offices. But others are called to it fully, not all of us.

Eph 4:11 KJV And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

1Co 12:21 KJV And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

1Co 12:28-30 KJV And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. (29) Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? (30) Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

good samaritan · #98 01-21-2016, 12:07 AM

Some history sources I have recently read and listened to say that as early as the 2nd century churches that a singular bishop was to a church. Also at that the 2nd century churches had developed Christian synagogues for meetings. I don't believe we pattern our lives from history but from the scripture. I do think there is an element of progressiveness in the church. God's word doesn't change, but I do believe that the scripture may not be perfectly clear in places purposefully because of a necessary progressiveness for the survival of the church. In other words all the methods of the early church may have not been meant to be taken as an exact copy in all cultures and venues. I want to be clear that the gospel of Jesus Christ and that of sin is never changing, but I only refer to some methods. IMO

BTW I do believe there should be multiple elders in the church, but not multiple bishops to a single assembly.

Esaias · #99 01-21-2016, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

The rule applies to EVERYONE. Pastor means SHEPHERD. People are called to be pastors. And sheep are in the fold. So, if a member of a congregation does not have the pastor as one of those in the church to whom he can go for advice, then the pastor is not his or her pastor. Pastors and congregation members all need someone to go to.

So, then, everyone needs a pastor, correct? Even pastors? Which brings us back to square one and my original post. If you are a pastor, who pastors you, and how do they do that?

Does a pastor's relationship to his pastor work the same as a 'sheep' and their pastor?

OR, are you saying ANYONE in a congregation who has an advisory relationship to anyone else is in a pastoral relationship? The one being the advisor is the one who is pastor? That is to say, whoever it is (might be the sound guy, might be the janitor, might be a pew warmer, might be the accountant/treasurer) that functions an an advisor to ANYONE is THAT PERSON'S 'pastor'? Is that what you are saying?

Again, I am not trying to argue any particular point about this particular subject, I am trying to understand how this is supposed to work. Preachers often say 'everyone needs a pastor' and 'everyone needs to be under godly authority' and 'everyone needs a covering'. And for non pastors that means everyone needs to be in a church and submitted to pastoral oversight. But what does that mean for the pastors themselves? How does it work out? Does it work the same? Or is it different?

That's what I am trying to find out. If anyone wants to jump in with some actual, concrete specifics, that would definitely help clear things up immensely, as far as I am concerned.

allstate1 · #**100** 01-21-2016, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

So, then, everyone needs a pastor, correct? Even pastors? Which brings us back to square one and my original post. If you are a pastor, who pastors you, and how do they do that?

Does a pastor's relationship to his pastor work the same as a 'sheep' and their pastor?

OR, are you saying ANYONE in a congregation who has an advisory relationship to anyone else is in a pastoral relationship? The one being the advisor is the one who is pastor? That is to say, whoever it is (might be the sound guy, might be the janitor, might be a pew warmer, might be the accountant/treasurer) that functions an an advisor to ANYONE is THAT PERSON'S 'pastor'? Is that what you are saying?

Again, I am not trying to argue any particular point about this particular subject, I am trying to understand how this is supposed to work. Preachers often say 'everyone needs a pastor' and 'everyone needs to be under godly authority' and 'everyone needs a covering'. And for non pastors that means everyone needs to be in a church and submitted to pastoral oversight. But what does that mean for the pastors themselves? How does it work out? Does it work the same? Or is it different?

That's what I am trying to find out. If anyone wants to jump in with some actual, concrete specifics, that would definitely help clear things up immensely, as far as I am concerned.

I'm with you on this subject.