Gino Jennings On Soul Sleep

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

So a person dies. The body is buried and their spirit returns to God. Then what?

"Sleep" until the resurrection.

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

"Sleep" until the resurrection.

So thats really my question if the spirit of man goes back to God who gave it. Is the spirit "alive"? what is meant by "Sleep"

When Jesus was in the grave what was his spirit doing?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

So thats really my question if the spirit of man goes back to God who gave it. Is the spirit "alive"? what is meant by "Sleep"

When Jesus was in the grave what was his spirit doing?

God breathed into man the breath of life and he became a living soul. Breath and spirit are the same word in Hebrew. When the spirit/breath goes back to God man ceases to exist. Thats what makes the doctrine of the resurrection so magnificent.

Jesus was dead when he was dead. "Sleep" is the Bible metaphor for being dead.

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

God breathed into man the breath of life and he became a living soul. Breath and spirit are the same word in Hebrew. When the spirit/breath goes back to God man ceases to exist. Thats what makes the doctrine of the resurrection so magnificent.

Jesus was dead when he was dead. "Sleep" is the Bible metaphor for being dead.

Jesus descended into the lower parts of the earth when he was dead. Is that not you understanding also.

[Michael The Disciple]

Part 1

These verses dont say what the immortal soul doctrine tries to force on them.

Ephesians 4

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Verse 8 is often misquoted as "he set the captives free". Yet the verse says nothing of the sort. It says he led captivity CAPTIVE.

First they make a parable Christ told about the judgment into an intermediate holding place for the dead.....who are very much alive...in Abes Bosom. They call it "Paradise".

So all the righteous dead before Christ came are said to have been there in peace and joy with Father Abe. Sounds like it would have been a great place to be!

Problem is Paul says Jesus led CAPTIVITY......CAPTIVE!

So actually now the doctrine must be switched. The dead, who were actually alive were being HELD AS CAPTIVES IN PARADISE!

So if they were in bliss and happiness why does Paul say they were being held as captives? Can you be captured by someone and held against your will and be considered living in Paradise?

So what was the captivity Paul said Jesus took captive?

Isaiah 38:10-11

King Hezekiah said:

10I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of the grave: I am deprived of the residue of my years.

11I said, I shall not see the LORD, even the LORD, in the land of the living: I shall behold man no more with the inhabitants of the world.

Verse 10 the word grave is rightly translated from the Hebrew "Sheol". Hezekiah knew where he was going at death. The grave and Sheol are the same.

Apparently he had never been told about when he went to Sheol he would be there with Abe and all the righteous that had died (but were really alive) as the immortal soul doctrine teaches.

How do we know?

Verse 11.

11I said, I shall not see the LORD, even the LORD, in the land of the living: I shall behold man no more with the inhabitants of the world.

He never expected to see any man again. So no he knew nothing about this place of paradise where he would see Abraham.

Instead he expected to be a CAPTIVE TO DEATH.

He said he was going to the gates of THE GRAVE. That friends was his captivity.

Job understood the same thing.

Job 17:11-16

11My days are past, my purposes are broken off, even the thoughts of my heart.

12They change the night into day: the light is short because of darkness.

13If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.

14I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister.

15And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it?

16They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.

Job thought of the pit "SHEOL" as being a place with bars metaphorically. He never knew anything about dying and going to be in Paradise with Abe and the saints.


He thought he was going to a place with bars to keep him there. The key is where was this place? How did he perceive Sheol/Hades? A place of Paradise? Or a place of dust?

The answer verse 16.

16They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.

Indeed the dust of the grave is what Job believed would be the bars that would hold him captive at death.

The people before Christs coming never thought of themselves going to Paradise with Abe at their death.

They believed at death they would descend to Sheol a place of DUST where they would be held by its bars and gates.

Psalm 9:13

Have mercy upon me, O LORD; consider my trouble which I suffer of them that hate me, thou that liftest me up from the gates of death:

The Psalmist wanted to be saved from the gates of DEATH.

So hopefully we can now understand the CAPTIVITY that Jesus led CAPTIVE. It was not that a multitude of dead people (who were really alive) were in Paradise with Abe, even tho somehow they were CAPTIVES there.

If you were in bliss with Abraham and the saints would that seem like CAPTIVITY to you?

End Part 1

[Michael The Disciple]

Part 2

Jesus led captivity captive. We have seen the Old Testament saints metaphorically believed their death would be like captivity. They would be held captive there.

How did Jesus take captivity captive?

Heb. 2:

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Paul said the devil had the power of death. Death came from man, Adam doing the will of the devil. He held that over man for many generations. They would all die because of him. All their lives they knew they would die one day.

That in itself was a form of bondage or captivity. Then the time would come it would actually happen. Their life, being mortal would be over.

BUT......then came the RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST! The devil never dealt with this before. Jesus lived his life on Earth having NEVER ONCE done his will.

Jesus was not worthy of death. Nonetheless the devil was glad to use Judas to betray him unto the death. He could get rid of him and go about his business.

The adversary did not know the plan the Lord of glory was working. If he would he would have never used Judas and the princes of this world to crucify him!

The prophecy given to Eve was coming true. The serpent would bruise his heel and her seed would crush his head.

God raised Jesus from the dead! In that glorious moment the devil's victory of man (because all had sinned) was taken away from him.

He had metaphorically held the KEYS OF DEATH AND HADES.

Now those "keys" were taken away from him by JESUS CHRIST!

The captivity that Jesus captured were the keys to the GRAVES OF THE RIGHTEOUS!

Rev. 1:17

17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Jesus had died, not for his own sin but for ours! The devil thought it was all over. So much for Jesus! But since Jesus had never done the will of the devil, he had no power to hold him in Sheol, the grave.

When the resurrection took place Jesus took mans captivity captive. If he would trust Jesus by being born again or identifying with his death, burial, and resurrection he could be made IMMORTAL LIKE JESUS!

Jesus resurrection brought immortality to light.

2 Tim. 1:9-10

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

By his death and then resurrection Jesus proved death could be defeated. Men only had glimpses of this truth in the OT. Life after death had been foretold but never realized.

Now there was a man who had been awakened from the sleep of death.

1 Cor. 15:20-23

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Jesus was the first to gain immortality. The saints also will receive it. Paul tells us exactly WHEN in verse 23.

AT HIS COMING. Until THEN the saints will continue to sleep.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is the good news of the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD!

Not that man has an immortal soul.

[Michael The Disciple]

Jesus has the KEYS to the gates of Hades/Sheol.

Matt. 16:18

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Hell here is "Hades" the exact same thing as "Sheol" the grave. Before Jesus men had never prevailed over death. Its gates were locked and held by the devil.

When Jesus rose the keys to the gates of Hades became his. His people who have died and went to the grave now have HOPE they will live again, this time as immortal beings.

At the time of Jesus coming he will use those KEYS to unlock the graves of those who died in Christ.

At this moment in the NATURAL it looks like Hades is prevailing over the saints. All the dead in Christ are THERE at this moment.

Yet look what happens at the coming of Jesus Christ and the resurrection.

1 Cor. 15:50-55

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Let these verses sink in for a minute and THEN GO BACK TO VERSE 55.

The Greek word for grave there is actually HADES.

You see what the verse is saying? UNTIL THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD which occurs at Christs second coming HADES has the victory over the saints. READ IT AGAIN.

So when Jesus said the gates of Hades will not prevail against the Church THIS IS WHAT HE MEANT!

He would conquer the gates of hades/death at his coming.....not at the individual Christians death.

[Esaias]

The Bible goes on and on and on about the resurrection. Immortal soulists go on and on and on about dying and going to heaven.

Seems to be a discrepancy there somewhere...

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

No, I read the posts. But the part I quoted and commented on is a crystal clear highlight of the disjunction between what you say and what the apostle said. You specifically said he was groaning and wanting to be with Jesus in the context of the intermediate state, 180 degrees opposite to what Paul said.

That's why I zeroed in on that particular point, even though all my other points still stand. THAT one point puts your belief in clear relief, compared to the apostle's. The contrast could not be more marked.

No. I clarify my point and you still deny what I said. I am explaining what I said and what I meant. I'm not lying about what I meant or said.

Here it is again.

The overall point is groaning to be out of a body of mortality and in an immortal one.

After that, he talks about what is better between staying in the mortal body or leaving it into a naked state of being out of a body and with with Jesus. Of course between those two options the better is to be with Jesus. But that's not the reason for the groaning.

Are you gong to continue to refuse my explanation now?

[mfblume]

Soul Sleep is False Doctrine

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

Paul stated that aside from the body of mortality we currently indwell, there is a body not of this world. It is a spiritual body as indicated in 1 Cor 15. And we desire to exit this mortal body that causes groaning and discomfort to our spirits and souls, but not so that we will be without any body at all. We groan to have a body that is not mortal, but immortal.

The mortal body is temporary and that’s why Paul called it a tabernacle. But the body from heaven is not tabernacle. It would be more like a temple by comparison. The enternal aspect means it is immortal.


2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

Being outside the mortal body and not indwelling an immortal body makes the spirit and soul naked. That is not a moral note, but simply speaking of soul and spirit not within a body.

2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Paul elaborates on what he just wrote, and says the groaning is due to being burdened. And it’s not a burden to be unclothed without any body whatsoever, though. Verses 2 and 3 both stress the desire to have an immortal body, and that we do not want to simply remain outside a body altogether just because the on in which we dell now is mortal and making us groan.

2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Here we read God created us to have an immortal body and not to indwell a mortal one that causes us to groan. This shows how our groaning matches the purpose of God, anyway.


2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

Now Paul goes further and adds to this information tat indwelling our mortal bodies means that we are absent from the Lord. It is here that he introduces the sub-thought of a preference to be naked when restricting the choice between presence with the Lord, albeit absent from body, or remaining in a mortal body. I stress it is a sub-thought to contrast this lesser point from the overall point initially noted in verses 2 and 3.


2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

In versed 7, Paul throws in an interested note. We do not SEE the kind of body we shall have. We believe it will come, which is having faith instead of living by sight where we cannot believe in something unless we see something. Paul had faith we will leave this mortal body and enter an immortal one despite the fac that he could not see it.


2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

As noted earlier, this is a sub-thought apart and distinct from the point noted in verses 2 and 3. Paul is now restricting his thoughts to a decision to decide between two OTHER choices apart from indwelling a mortal body and an immortal one. To be clear and plain, the overall goal is the indwelling of an immortal body instead of the current mortal bodies we now indwell. And the groaning in this mortal body is to escape it and instead indwell an immortal body. (I already made this plain but detractors insist I said otherwise.)

Upon having mentioned absence from the Lord when indwelling the current mortal body, Paul makes the sub-thought of a choice to be with the Lord and absent from the mortal body, or remain in the mortal body and be absent from the Lord. Absence from the Lord or absence from the mortal body. That is the contrast to be understood in verse 8, that is NOT to be confused with the overall contrast between indwelling a mortal body or an immortal body.

And the contrast here indicates what Esaias agreed was Paul’s DESIRE, Paul also noted it was something he insisted in confidence would actually happen. He was both confident in the idea that he would be absent from the mortal body and hopeful for such a state of being, not at all denying the ultimate and greater desire was to be in an immortal body for which our spirits and souls were created to indwell. However, comparing absence from the Lord and absence from the mortal body, Paul would rather be absent from the mortal body.

And absence from the mortal body as well as from the immortal body is nakedness of the soul and spirit.

What is also important to note in Paul’s words in this chapter is that he never says presence with the Lord and absence from the mortal body can only and will only be experienced with indwelling an immortal body. And because Paul’s sub-thought of contrasting absence from the Lord with absence from the mortal body, we know Paul was teaching that there will be a time for those who die before the Lord’s coming when they will be naked without an immortal or mortal body, and present with the Lord in heaven.


2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Here Paul continues this sub-thought, and continues to restrict the discussion from verse 8 to 9 about presence and absence initiated in verse 6. Verse 6 mentioned absence from the Lord while in a mortal body.. Again, note he did not say the alternative presence with the Lord demanded indwelling an immortal body. He simply said indwelling a mortal body is absence from the Lord, which inspired the sub-thought of comparing presence with the mortal body from presence with the Lord.

So, present or absent from the Lord, or from the mortal body, Paul wanted to be accepted of God. And this shows another sub-thought Paul introduces. Paul did this many times in his writings. It allowed him to cover many points all related to the other points.

continued...