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  #991  
Old 12-16-2014, 08:40 AM
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Re: Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Fathe

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Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson View Post
Is Jesus the Word of St. John 1:1?

Yes or No
I'll take yes for 200 bert!! LOL
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  #992  
Old 12-16-2014, 08:57 AM
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Re: Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Fathe

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I'll take yes for 200 bert!! LOL
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  #993  
Old 12-16-2014, 09:34 AM
shazeep shazeep is offline
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Re: Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Fathe

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Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson View Post
Is Jesus the Word of St. John 1:1?

Yes or No
well, one might more correctly say the Word, made flesh, yes. And don't misunderstand me--if you wish to hold Christ as God, that is fine with me. That is your business, between you and God. If it produces fruit for you, and gets you to better loving your neighbor, i say amen.
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  #994  
Old 12-18-2014, 08:41 AM
obriencp obriencp is offline
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Re: Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Fathe

i think the main arguement of the trinity vs oneness hinges on if the "word" was a separate person from God. We all tend to agree that the Word is God and we all seem to agree that God was made flesh. Was a separate person/identity called the word, Christ? I tend to lean towards the oneness view and think that the word was a plan or unrealized action of God that in time would be revealed.
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  #995  
Old 12-18-2014, 09:16 AM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Fathe

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Originally Posted by obriencp View Post
i think the main arguement of the trinity vs oneness hinges on if the "word" was a separate person from God. We all tend to agree that the Word is God and we all seem to agree that God was made flesh. Was a separate person/identity called the word, Christ? I tend to lean towards the oneness view and think that the word was a plan or unrealized action of God that in time would be revealed.

Well, in our case, our word is not a separate person from ourselves, but it is the source of communication coming from our being. (either verbal or thoughts)

With God, His word(verbal) created everything....Gen 1..



1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
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  #996  
Old 12-18-2014, 11:11 AM
thephnxman thephnxman is offline
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Re: Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Fathe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson View Post
Is Jesus the Word of St. John 1:1?
Yes or No
Too many professing Christians seem to get stuck on the NAME: and because they don't really address the NAME,
they use the same arguments that Catholicism uses, along with her daughters, to try and defend the trinity.

God's spoken word, sans the body, is not Jesus. Jn. 1:1, describes the word FROM THE BEGINNING of creation.
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  #997  
Old 12-30-2014, 03:29 PM
Pastor DTSalaz Pastor DTSalaz is offline
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Re: Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Fathe

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Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson View Post
Remind me, please.

How does Oneness Theology work for those who really are Oneness but really don't believe that Jesus Christ is the Father (as in God the Father).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson View Post
Remind me, please.

How does Oneness Theology work for those who really are Oneness but really don't believe that Jesus Christ is the Father (as in God the Father).
I haven't been on this forum for about three years and found this question quite interesting. Before I read on I will give you my honest answer then I will continue reading the posts. I am not even afraid to use the word trinity of manifestations but not trinity in God. All three manifestations work in unity to reveal the one true God.

There is only one God. His essence is simply one. He is not a compound or a unity within one God. The LORD our God is one (Ehad). Nothing can be added unto Him or taken away. To understand who God is we utilize anthropomorphic terms to describe Him so that our minds can grasp Him using earthly concepts.

There are three main distinct manifestations of God. Though there have been many manifestations of God in different forms we have not given them equal footing as equating God completely with that particular manifestation. There have also been symbolic types used to describe God foreshadowing his earthly incarnation. We also have attributes that we add to the revealed Name of God due to His actions toward mankind. These are not part of His essence

One. Prior to the incarnation he was known as the Father due to the fact that he was the originator of all things. Not necessarily because he had a Son. The Hebrew called Him Father of their nation his chosen people. Jesus also referred to Him as Father later in time for he is the only begotten of the Father. This title is also given to Him as the originator of the Son of God / son of man. God is revealed in creation, redemption, and regeneration.

Romans 1. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

After being transcendent and separate from creation a holy God became immanent revealing himself by becoming flesh.

Second. So robing himself in flesh we call him by the title Son. This does not say He is but that his name shall be called.......

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace

A child is born this is the son of man born fully human body, soul, and spirit. Completely limited as every child is born. This was not divine flesh, it was subject to every feeling and infirmity that we are.

15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Yet at the same time a Son was given the Son of God. This is the greatest manifestation of God himself in creation. He equates this manifestation to his first self revelation as the Word which the patriarchs knew solely as El Shadday. This revelation of God known anthropomorphically as the Word was first called father by the Hebrew nation on account of creation is now the Son to be given.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The accidents of any object or being reveal its composition type and class. The what it is. They in no way reveal specific character, who it is. This is revealed by words and actions of that being. For our understanding so as we think we speak, this is our spoken word revealing the real you. When God utilized the phrase "and God said" it revealed his creative power though he didn't even have to utter a word we capture concepts. Thus in the beginning was the Word from his knowledge, understanding, wisdom and power. God said and it was done. Yet not all of his inner understanding and plan was revealed in creation. God knows the beginning from the end. The Word was with God. In his omniscience God had a plan of redemption and salvation that was with Him that he would unfold over time.

Revelation 13.8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law

To conclude for now I would say
There is one God indivisible simply one
The Father is God as he is a distinct manifestation of God
Jesus Christ is God as He is a distinct manifestation of God
The Holy Spirit / Ghost is God as He is a distinct manifestation of God

Jesus the man is not the Father
Jesus the man is not the Holy Ghost
Jesus showed both aspects of his dual nature being both fully man and fully God.
Jesus the man is still in heaven seated at the right hand of God until his mediator role is completed.

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. View more

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

That which tabernacled in Jesus the man is called the Son of God and is what is revealed as being the manifestation of both the Father and the Holy Spirit as well.
All we have to do is get the illumination of what has already been revealed.

Pastor Daniel T. Salaz
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  #998  
Old 12-30-2014, 03:46 PM
Pastor DTSalaz Pastor DTSalaz is offline
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Re: Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Fathe

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
Categories of belief have to have meaning, or else they cease to be categories.

I would say that if a person claims to be Oneness, but doesn't believe that Jesus is the Father, then they cannot be classified as "Oneness".

We shouldn't go around co-opting terms to suit ourselves when the terms have an already well established meaning.
There are times we repeat phrases but fail to grasp the concept. I am fully oneness and understand the idea of a distinction of God in his manifestations, but never a distinction in God.

The manifestation of God as Father is distinct from his manifestation of God through the Son.
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  #999  
Old 12-30-2014, 06:17 PM
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Re: Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Fathe

I can suggest listening to a Eld. Marvin Hicks debate. The Elder was razor sharp on this very subject. Eld. David Bernard debated some and I'm sure you will find them very helpful.
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  #1000  
Old 12-30-2014, 06:19 PM
thephnxman thephnxman is offline
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Re: Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Fathe

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Originally Posted by Pastor DTSalaz View Post
There are times we repeat phrases but fail to grasp the concept. I am fully oneness and understand the idea of a distinction of God in his manifestations, but never a distinction in God.
The manifestation of God as Father is distinct from his manifestation of God through the Son.
That is one of the most correct statements that I have heard in quite awhile.
Most folks lean to "God the son": believing that the body, itself, is God; while
scripture attests that God has "...given us an entrance into the holiest by
the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which he has consecrated for us,
through the veil, that is to say, his flesh."
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