Hell In Question

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Brethren, I think you have crossed a bad line to cross, in all sincerity. Not to be insulting, but you have really surprised me. Seriously.

I'm sure you have surprised a few folks too!


I'm just bringing points used to support UR and trying to see how some would address them.

I guess it all boils down to does man have a free will????

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Bro. Blume, yes or no question....did Jesus die to save all of mankind?

I think you crossed the line of just looking at a view, bro. lol

Jesus died to make it possible for all to be saved. Period. Does not mean all will. Otherwise people have lost the ability of choice.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I think you crossed the line of just looking at a view, bro. lol

Jesus died to make it possible for all to be saved. Period. Does not mean all will. Otherwise people have lost the ability of choice.

Not necessarily.

You see prophecy is powerful. The prophets, including Jesus, foretold the destruction of Jerusalem....does that mean that Jerusalem had no choice? The prophets have foretold many things regarding the history of Israel...does that mean Israel had no choice? Of course not. You see, prophecy is such that it reveals what people will choose and how it pays a hand in God's salvific drama with mankind. Just because the Scriptures prophecy that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, or that all flesh shall come unto him for he will hear their prayers...it doesn't mean that they have no choice. It only reveals that all creation will one day choose to submit to it's creator. Luke put it this way....

Acts 3:21 (NIV)
21He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Consider it a prophecy...the most majestic prophecy in Scripture....Apocatastasis.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Not necessarily.

You see prophecy is powerful. The prophets, including Jesus, foretold the destruction of Jerusalem....does that mean that Jerusalem had no choice?

This is where proper balance must come into play regarding God's foreknowledge and man's choice. God knows what will happen, but does not make it happen. UR is actually God making things happen without any choice in man in the end -- the "ultimate" end.

The prophets have foretold many things regarding the history of Israel...does that mean Israel had no choice? Of course not. You see, prophecy is such that it reveals what people will choose and how it pays a hand in God's salvific drama with mankind. Just because the Scriptures prophecy that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, or that all flesh shall come unto him for he will hear their prayers...it doesn't mean that they have no choice. It only reveals that all creation will one day choose to submit to it's creator. Luke put it this way....

Acts 3:21 (NIV)
21He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Consider it a prophecy...the most majestic prophecy in Scripture....Apocatastasis.

UR is not like that nor can ever be like that. It is God intervening and ensuring none be lost. There are actually human beings who want to be lost, knowing there is a God. This is a fact. However, these folks cannot even decide according to UR.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

This is where proper balance must come into play regarding God's foreknowledge and man's choice. God knows what will happen, but does not make it happen. UR is actually God making things happen without any choice in man in the end -- the "ultimate" end.

How is that? For if a soul experiences Hell for 100 years or a thousand years before coming to the place of willfully surrendering to God's authority does not that soul have a choice? All the UR position proposes is that a time will come when all souls will be in perfect, willful, submission to their creator. In UR, God doesn't set the time that one is purified in Hell. Frankly, that's up to the individual...with UR, Hell's flames will bring them to that place where their will is finally broken and their souls are purified.

UR is not like that nor can ever be like that. It is God intervening and ensuring none be lost. There are actually human beings who want to be lost, knowing there is a God. This is a fact. However, these folks cannot even decide according to UR.

I know some like that....they'd rather be lost than serve a God who would torment 16 year old Hindu girls who never heard the Gospel for all eternity. My mother-in-law is such a person. She rejects Christianity on account of Hell. She's Jewish and she says, "My God would never do such a thing to anyone." I was in the Army and I can relate to those feelings to a degree...if God were a human King who did this to his political enemies....I'd never bow to him. The more I think about it the more he becomes something I struggle to believe in on a moral level.

For those individuals who choose sin over Christ....and for those who choose Hell over religion's interpretation of God....UR teaches that they will be purified and their will eventually broken. It's just a matter of time. Their wills will be broken and their souls purified. As with near death experiences, it's a choice to cry out for God's mercy...rather one be alive or dead.

That's UR as I understand it.

[Aquila]

This is going to be a real personal question for everyone reading this. Please feel free not to answer if you guys like....

Has anyone lost a loved one who wasn't saved?

I have a grandfather who died without being "saved". For the life of me....I don't know why God would burn him for billions, and billions, and billions, and billions of eons. Nor do I see why God would disintegrate him forever in a fiery furnace. He was a good man, honest to fault, even though he distrusted churches and was rather agnostic. And somehow I'm supposed to be able to enjoy the Marriage Supper knowing he's roasting alive with the vast majority of humanity. I don't know...I certainly hope we don't see "Mission Accomplished" banners hanging in Heaven...because the majority are toast.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Aquila

This is going to be a real personal question for everyone reading this. Please feel free not to answer if you guys like....

Has anyone lost a loved one who wasn't saved?

I have a grandfather who died without being "saved". For the life of me....I don't know why God would burn him for billions, and billions, and billions, and billions of eons. Nor do I see why God would disintegrate him forever in a fiery furnace. He was a good man, honest to fault, even though he distrusted churches and was rather agnostic. And somehow I'm supposed to be able to enjoy the Marriage Supper knowing he's roasting alive with the vast majority of humanity. I don't know...I certainly hope we don't see "Mission Accomplished" banners hanging in Heaven...because the majority are toast.

Could you the created be more merciful than the Creator? Not a chance!!! "...and His mercies never fail..."

[Aquila]

I don't doubt for a minute that Hell is real and that Hell is terrible. Nor do I doubt that any time spent there is an eternity of horror. But what I'm wrestling with is Hell's purpose. If Hell serves no redemptive purpose is it not cruelty of the highest order? Is it entertainment? I couldn't rejoice in Heaven as long as Hell is roasting billions and billions of souls. Imagine holding a banquet and laughing while prisoners are being cast into blazing ovens. It sounds so medieval to me...it smells like a Catholic concoction designed to terrify.

Paul wrote....

I Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

If death is destroyed, utterly eradicated, we are left with only one thing... life. If one person remained "dead" or existed in a state of "death" (spiritual or physical) it cannot be said that death was destroyed...for the very state of death itself would still exist. Death can only be said to be truly destroyed if the state of death is forever vanquished and all things are brought into a state of life. As long as one soul remains in a state of death (spiritual or physical) death remains and death holds that soul.

In addition we see something in the last chapter of Revelation that's interesting. I'm going to speak as a Futurist here (though I lean Partial Preterist)...after the so called Tribulation and the so called Millennium we see the eternal state.

Revelation 22:1-5
1And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

We see that in eternity there is need for healing. This healing is provided by the "leaves" from the tree of life. We know that those who are saved are glorified and bringing their glory into the Holy City, the New Jerusalem...who's in need of healing? And if these "reign" who are they reigning over? Could it be as each man, "in his own order", is reconciled they will need to be ministered to, healed, from the "leaves" of the tree of life? Of course we know how symbolic this is...but the implications of a spiritual restoration can't be denied. We also see that there is "no more curse". Those who are reconciled certainly are not going to reign, but rather might be reigned over.

Could it be that here we see that death is vanquished...the very state of death (spiritual and physical)? Could we be seeing that the nations of the saved are walking in the city...and the healing leaves of the tree of life are healing those nations that have been bruised by God's chastisement?

Just a few thoughts.

[Aquila]

I wish I would have known about this kind of thing when I was witnessing to my mother-in-law years ago. She told me point blank, she loved Jesus and would like to believe in him. But she was appalled at the idea that God would burn most of humanity in a fiery Hell forever. You have to understand...my wife's mother had married into a Jewish family and converted. The idea of casting people into a fiery furnace was VERY disturbing to her. Her image of the Christian God was rather upsetting to say the least.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I wish I would have known about this kind of thing when I was witnessing to my mother-in-law years ago. She told me point blank, she loved Jesus and would like to believe in him. But she was appalled at the idea that God would burn most of humanity in a fiery Hell forever. You have to understand...my wife's mother had married into a Jewish family and converted. The idea of casting people into a fiery furnace was VERY disturbing to her. Her image of the Christian God was rather upsetting to say the least.

What do Jews believe about the afterlife?