Is Jesus Sitting on a Throne in His Flesh?

[SteppingStone]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Right. But what has that got to do with whether or not Jesus is presently Spirit and not Flesh?

It will come to you soon enough..

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by SteppingStone

It will come to you soon enough..

Brother, Jesus spoke words that are spirit and life while he had a physical body. That proves this fact does not determine whether or not he has a physical body now. You have to explain yourself better, bro, if I am missing something. As the word made flesh, His words were spirit and life.

The bible does not say He changed from flesh to Spirit. His resurrection was with a spiritual body that was quite physical. And He left in that body and nothing in scripture says it no longer exists. We cannot take statements made about vocal words and apply them to physical flesh as though that flesh changes to be spirit as much as the vocal words were. The vocal words were quite physical, since they were vocalized. But they were still spirit at the same time since TRUTH is intangible. But that has nothing to do with flesh. He said HIS FLESH represented TRUTH in John 6. They thought he meant eat His flesh, but He meant believe His words. That is why he said what he did about his words being spirit.

[TK Burk]

Jesus sitting on a throne is symbolic, not literal. There is only One God. Therefore, there isn't a 33 ½ year old “god the son” sitting on a physical throne in the sky, while “god the spirit” indwells individuals who constitute His Church. Jesus walked the earth as a man. He died as a man. He was resurrected as a man. He ascended as a man. He came back as a quickening Spirit. Isn’t that what Jesus said He would do in John 14:17? The throne He is said to sit upon is found in His New Jerusalem, which the Bible says is His Church.

[TK Burk]

Concerning whether Jesus now has a flesh and bone body, the first five posts in THIS THREAD gives a scriptural answer.

[mfblume]

From the thread Bro Burk referenced, these thoughts show a physical resurrection.

1) The personal plural pronouns in Phil 3:20 are limited to the church, showing that the same must be held for that used in verse 21. This in turn shows that our vile body refers to the physical body of arms and legs. etc., that shall be fashioned like Jesus' body. It is not a different sort of "body" of covenant people, for example. The church is not vile nor ever has nor will be.

2) The BODY is a container in 2 Cor 5, showing that the idea of a spiritual body being not physical loses its "containing" function Paul required by his words.

3) We can be absent from the body with the Lord when we physically die, showing we have NO BODY at all in such a period -- not even spiritual.

3) Romans 8 mentions the creation groans waiting for the redemption of our bodies when sons of God are manifested.

4) Jesus is said to have experienced "dieth no more, death has no more dominion over Him," in Romans 6, indicating He has a physical body that cannot die. Otherwise, the point is moot since spirits do not die, anyway. The DIETH NO MORE must relate to what actually did die. Since we know Jesus' Spirit did not die, but only His body did, then that which DIETH NO MORE must also refer to the body that ONCE DIED.

5) Romans 6 answers the issue of death in Romans 5 that Adam brought into the world by His sin by having Jesus physically die.

[mfblume]

Mental,

Now that I have posted the information you requested, I recalled that the link I gave to the website with Harris' and Wright's thoughts was the original website from which I gained those thoughts of IKOS and INOS in the original post I submitted about the issue.

Any comments on Wright and Harris?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Marvin R. Vincent, D.D.


Vincent's Word Studies

1 Cor 15:44
Spiritual body (σώμα πνευματικόν)
A body in which a divine πνεῦμα spirit supersedes the ψυχή soul, so that the resurrection-body is the fitting organ for its indwelling and work, and so is properly characterized as a spiritual body.

1Co 15:46
Not first - spiritual - natural
A general principle, illustrated everywhere in human history, that the lower life precedes the higher.

Vincent bases his thoughts from Wendt and Meyer.

with what kind of a body, the answer, expanded throughout nearly the whole chapter, is, a spiritual body.

Body (σώματι)
Organism. The objection assumes that the risen man must exist in some kind of an organism; and as this cannot be the fleshly body which is corrupted and dissolved, resurrection is impossible. Σῶμα body is related to σάρξ flesh, as general to special; σῶμα denoting the material organism, not apart from any matter, but apart from any definite matter; and σάρξ the definite earthly, animal organism. See on Rom_6:6. The question is not, what will be the substance of the risen body, but what will be its organization (Wendt)?


1Co 15:44
A natural body (σώμα ψυχικόν)
See on 1Co_2:14. The word ψυχικόν natural occurs only twice outside this epistle; Jam_3:15; Jud_1:19. The expression natural body signifies an organism animated by a ψυχή soul (see on Rom_11:4); that phase of the immaterial principle in man which is more nearly allied to the σάρξ flesh, and which characterizes the man as a mortal creature; while πνεῦμα spirit is that phase which looks Godward, and characterizes him as related to God. “It is a brief designation for the whole compass of the non-corporeal side of the earthly man” (Wendt). “In the earthly body the ψυχή soul, not the πνεῦμα spirit is that which conditions its constitution and its qualities, so that it is framed as the organ of the ψυχή. In the resurrection-body the πνεῦμα spirit, for whose life-activity it is the adequate organ, conditions its nature” (Meyer). Compare Plato: “The soul has the care of inanimate being everywhere, and traverses the whole heaven in divers forms appearing; when perfect and fully winged she soars upward, and is the ruler of the universe; while the imperfect soul loses her feathers, and drooping in her flight, at last settles on the solid ground - there, finding a home, she receives an earthly frame which appears to be self-moved, but is really moved by her power; and this composition of soul and body is called a living and mortal creature. For immortal no such union can be reasonably believed to be; although fancy, not having seen nor surely known the nature of God, may imagine an immortal creature having a body, and having also a soul which are united throughout all time” (“Phaedrus,” 246).

Spiritual body (σώμα πνευματικόν)
A body in which a divine πνεῦμα spirit supersedes the ψυχή soul, so that the resurrection-body is the fitting organ for its indwelling and work, and so is properly characterized as a spiritual body.

“When, glorious and sanctified, our flesh
Is reassumed, then shall our persons be
More pleasing by their being all complete;
For will increase whate'er bestows on us
Of light gratuitous the Good Supreme,
Light which enables us to look on Him;
Therefore the vision must perforce increase,
Increase the ardor which from that is kindled,
Increase the radiance from which this proceeds.
But even as a coal that sends forth flame,
And by its vivid whiteness overpowers it
So that its own appearance it maintains,
Thus the effulgence that surrounds us now
Shall be o'erpowered in aspect by the flesh,
Which still to-day the earth doth cover up;
Nor can so great a splendor weary us,
For strong will be the organs of the body
To everything which hath the power to please us.”
“Paradiso,” xiv., 43-60.

Originally Posted by mental

I'm not sure what you mean here and why you are referring to Chap. 10.



I would just say that Albert Barnes is by no means a recent scholar. Our knowledge of Greek grammar has really advanced quite a bit since his time. I’m not sure you can refer to “Greek scholars” and quote men who died in 1870 and 1934 respectively. Also he is talking about 1 Cor 2 here, not 1 Cor 15. They are different. You still haven’t told me where to find this information about 1 Cor 15 backed up by ikos and inos suffixes. You haven’t even given me a reference for ikos and inos at all.




Not in verse 44 which is what I am refering to. The subject is an adjective. The spiritual vs the natural.




But you still have an adjective describing the noun body. In other words a spiritual body. I'm not convinced you can say this means a spiritually empowered flesh body rather than a description of the body itself.

Can you guys restart this conversation in another thread? It sounds interesting but I would have to back up and read through a lot of posts. Can one of you start another thread and sum up the issue with some evidences please?

[mental]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Mental,

Now that I have posted the information you requested, I recalled that the link I gave to the website with Harris' and Wright's thoughts was the original website from which I gained those thoughts of IKOS and INOS in the original post I submitted about the issue.

Any comments on Wright and Harris?

Interesting. How's that?

I saw your post but I haven't had a chance to look at it seriously. I will try to take a look later tonight. This is actually something I have been wanting to get a handle on. I don't have any "position" to defend so I'm open to learning. Thanks for the sources.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Can you guys restart this conversation in another thread? It sounds interesting but I would have to back up and read through a lot of posts. Can one of you start another thread and sum up the issue with some evidences please?

ok

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I am just going by what the Greek scholars said on the issue. And anyone can also see that the same terms used in 1 Cor 2 and 1 Cor 10 do not mean the term PNEUMATIKOS cannot refer to something physical.

Brother Blume the first part of pneumatikos is pneuma which means breath, spirit, or wind. It means spiritual, and can be applied to define men, or things that are spiritual. If we call Brother Blume a spiritual man, it is not something physical on him, but something that would be in him. Part of the rational mind, and not something we can inspect by materialism. Spirit/pneuma means something that is invisible, and unseen. God is a spirit, those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth. God is unseen.