Why Is The "Christmas Spirit" So Different?

[missourimary]

Originally Posted by mfblume

It has nothing to do with time. If someone worshiped a pagan tree god by putting sacrifices beneath a decorated tree, then left that false faith, and two hours later put a gift beneath a decorated tree for a friend, there is nothing wrong with that second act. All anyone can do is distort the point we are making and change it into some strawman like time passing to condone a ritual used in worship.

...and if the new brother was reminded of his idolatry by putting a gift under a decorated tree, he could and should be all means refrain for conscience's sake. Yet he shouldn't look down on those who have no such memory or intent. That's my understanding of what Paul was writing.

Someone asked, inside another quote, what songs came from pagan roots. Almost all the songs we sing in Apostolic churches... and not too long ago at that. Any song we sing using drums and electric guitars would turn some little old lady's hair blue in a number of other churches, because we "bring the world into the church" with it. Because that little old lady is remembering Elvis's debut or some of the Beatles' songs... My own mother thinks if a song has a beat other than the left hand part in a hymn, it borders on sin when performed in church. Tamborines? Holdover from hippies. Guitars, drums, and electric keyboards? Rock. Stages and stage lights? Outrage! Heresy! That's straight out of rock and roll. Who popularized fog machines or light shows? Rock musicians? That's how I learned about them. Seeing them used at youth convention seemed a little worldly even to me.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by missourimary

...and if the new brother was reminded of his idolatry by putting a gift under a decorated tree, he could and should be all means refrain for conscience's sake. Yet he shouldn't look down on those who have no such memory or intent. That's my understanding of what Paul was writing.

Right. The weak conscience is with the one offended. And we are not to cause people to lose out with the Lord by offending them. It is more important to promote righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost than to be correct and yet offend a brother. DO it away from those of weak conscience. Rom 14 in a nutshell.

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by missourimary

...and if the new brother was reminded of his idolatry by putting a gift under a decorated tree, he could and should be all means refrain for conscience's sake. Yet he shouldn't look down on those who have no such memory or intent. That's my understanding of what Paul was writing.

Someone asked, inside another quote, what songs came from pagan roots. Almost all the songs we sing in Apostolic churches... and not too long ago at that. Any song we sing using drums and electric guitars would turn some little old lady's hair blue in a number of other churches, because we "bring the world into the church" with it. Because that little old lady is remembering Elvis's debut or some of the Beatles' songs... My own mother thinks if a song has a beat other than the left hand part in a hymn, it borders on sin when performed in church. Tamborines? Holdover from hippies. Guitars, drums, and electric keyboards? Rock. Stages and stage lights? Outrage! Heresy! That's straight out of rock and roll. Who popularized fog machines or light shows? Rock musicians? That's how I learned about them. Seeing them used at youth convention seemed a little worldly even to me.

Boothe-Clibborn wrote the wonderful hymn Down From His Glory with Elvis' tune, It's Now or Never

Oh great reluctance
flesh and blood His substance
He took the form of man
revealed the hidden plan
oh glorious mystery
precious lamb of calvary
and now I know Thou art the great I AM.

Oh how I love Him
How I adore Him
My breath, my sunshine
My All in all
The great Creator
became my Savior
and all the fulness
dwelleth in Him!

What a Great Hymn of the Church!

[Truthseeker]

Pagan man gets saved, but has a strong enough conscious to continue his pagan ways. make sense?

[Truthseeker]

Amazing Romans 14 can be twisted to justify pagan cutoms, amazing.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Amazing Romans 14 can be twisted to justify pagan cutoms, amazing.

It does not justify pagan customs, but points out that the intention of looking at it as nothing to do with false gods in reality is the key point to be understood, and the key difference. There is no justification for conscious worship of a false god in a pagan activity. The intention to NOT WORSHIP ANYTHING is why 1 Cor 10 says to not do anything in a pagan temple because temple activity is for nothing but worship. There's no condoning false gods at all when we are saying THEY DO NOT EXIST and any activity done in identical manners that are used to honour such non-entities is just activity. If the heart is not honouring a false god, then whatever activity is involved is simply activity as much as eating meat offered to idols is JUST EATING MEAT.

Why can't you see that?

Speaking of twisting, you have not yet represented our view correctly without twisting it and proposing things we are not saying at all. We understand your reasoning, but why can you not understand ours?

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by mfblume

It does not justify pagan customs, but points out that the intention of looking at it as nothing to do with false gods in reality is the key point to be understood, and the key difference. There is no justification for conscious worship of a false god in a pagan activity. The intention to NOT WORSHIP ANYTHING is why 1 Cor 10 says to not do anything in a pagan temple because temple activity is for nothing but worship. There's no condoning false gods at all when we are saying THEY DO NOT EXIST and any activity done in identical manners that are used to honour such non-entities is just activity. If the heart is not honouring a false god, then whatever activity is involved is simply activity as much as eating meat offered to idols is JUST EATING MEAT.

Why can't you see that?

Speaking of twisting, you have not yet represented our view correctly without twisting it and proposing things we are not saying at all. We understand your reasoning, but why can you not understand ours?

What about when it says to not eat meats offered to idols. I posted that a while back but no one answered that one.

If meats offered to a nonexisted false god then why not eat if not in heart to worship false god.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

What about when it says to not eat meats offered to idols. I posted that a while back but no one answered that one.

I answered it.

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/sho...0&postcount=83

If meats offered to a nonexisted false god then why not eat if not in heart to worship false god.

I explained this. A person who has a weak conscience, is one who DOES NOT KNOW the truth and actually acknowledges the existence of a false god when in reality it does not exist.

This explains it well:

CLARKE:

1Co 8:7
There is not in every man that knowledge - This is spoken in reference to what is said, 1Co_8:4 : We know that an idol is nothing in the world; for some with a conscience of the idol, viz. that it is something, eat it - the flesh that was offered to the idol, as a thing thus offered, considering the feast as a sacred banquet, by which they have fellowship with the idol. And their conscience being weak - not properly instructed in Divine things, is defiled - he performs what he does as an act of religious worship, and thus his conscience contracts guilt through this idolatry.

BARNES:

1Co 8:7
Howbeit - But. In the previous verses Paul had stated the argument of the Corinthians - that they all knew that an idol was nothing; that they worshipped but one God; and that there could be no danger of their falling into idolatry, even should they partake of the meat offered in sacrifice to idols. Here he replies, that though this might be generally true, yet it was not universally; for that some were ignorant on this subject, and supposed that an idol had a real existence, and that to partake of that meat would be to confirm them in their superstition. The inference therefore is, that on their account they should abstain; see 1Co_8:11-13.

There is not ... - There are some who are weak and ignorant; who have still remains of pagan opinions and superstitious feelings.

That knowledge - That there is but one God; and that an idol is nothing.

For some with conscience of the idol - From conscientious regard to the idol; believing that an idol god has a real existence; and that his favor should be sought, and his wrath be deprecated. It is not to be supposed that converted people would regard idols as the only God; but they might suppose that they were intermediate beings, good or bad angels, and that it was proper to seek their favor or avert their wrath. We are to bear in mind that the pagan were exceedingly ignorant; and that their former notions and superstitious feelings about the gods whom their fathers worshipped, and whom they had adored, would not soon leave them even on their conversion to Christianity. This is just one instance, like thousands, in which former erroneous opinions, prejudices, or superstitious views may influence those who are truly converted to God, and greatly mar and disfigure the beauty and symmetry of their religious character.

Eat it as a thing ... - As offered to an idol who was entitled to adoration; or as having a right to their homage. They supposed that some invisible spirit was present with the idol; and that his favor should be sought, or his wrath averted by sacrifice.

And their conscience being weak - Being unenlightened on this subject; and being too weak to withstand the temptation in such a case. Not having a conscience sufficiently clear and strong to enable them to resist the temptation; to overcome all their former prejudices and superstitious feelings; and to act in an independent manner, as if an idol were nothing. Or their conscience was morbidly sensitive and delicate on this subject, they might be disposed to do right, and yet not have sufficient knowledge to convince them that an idol was nothing, and that they ought not to regard it.

Is defiled - Polluted; contaminated. By thus countenancing idolatry he is led into sin, and contracts guilt that will give him pain when his conscience becomes more enlightened; 1Co_8:11, 1Co_8:13. From superstitious reverence of the idol, he might think that he was doing right; but the effect would be to lead him to conformity to idol worship that would defile his conscience, pollute his mind, and ultimately produce the deep and painful conviction of guilt. The general reply, therefore, of Paul to the first argument in favor of partaking of the meat offered in sacrifice to idols is, that all Christians have not full knowledge on the subject; and that to partake of that might lead them into the sin of idolatry, and corrupt and destroy their souls.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Bottom line.... what is wrong with a pagan custom? It's because it is done in worship to a false god. Take away that element, and it's nothing. I can jump up and down 10 times in praise to the god Blakado. What's wrong with what I'm doing? The praise in my heart for the god Blakado. Take that away, and I'm just jumping up and down. Nothing wrong with jumping up and down. People the world over don't have to stop jumping up and down. Only something wrong with worshiping another god.

If I was converted and decided that I was going to start jumping up and down for Jesus..... well, go me. It's the worship in my heart that's right or wrong. Not the activity I associate with it.

It's really that simple.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

Bottom line.... what is wrong with a pagan custom? It's because it is done in worship to a false god. Take away that element, and it's nothing. I can jump up and down 10 times in praise to the god Blakado. What's wrong with what I'm doing? The praise in my heart for the god Blakado. Take that away, and I'm just jumping up and down. Nothing wrong with jumping up and down. People the world over don't have to stop jumping up and down. Only something wrong with worshiping another god.

If I was converted and decided that I was going to start jumping up and down for Jesus..... well, go me. It's the worship in my heart that's right or wrong. Not the activity I associate with it.

It's really that simple.

poor comparison