True or False: Grace is harder than Law

[votivesoul]

In the OT, because the law of sin could never be broken, and the body of sins could not be destroyed, a person could certainly feel contrition, and remorse for any sin they committed, and go to the priest and offer the necessary sacrifice. But that was it.

Not until Jesus came and said "sin no more", and offered His blood as atonement, and with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, could the law of sin be broken, and the body of sins destroyed.

What this means is, under the OT, a person was stuck in their sins, no matter how hard they tried. The call to an absolutely pure, sin-free life wasn't given because it wasn't possible. The stained conscience ever remained stained.

Under grace, the call is indeed given, and the expectation is sinlessness.

No more excuses under grace! God's divine power has been given to us, and with it, all things necessary so that we may live a life of godliness.

This is such a higher standard that OT law.

Yes, by walking in the Spirit, trusting the Lord, and not the arm of the flesh, this becomes possible.

But where does judgment begin? At the house of God, right? And what saith the Apostle?

"If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear" (1 Peter 4:13).

Here, Simon Peter makes it abundantly clear, that in this New Covenant of Grace, it is very difficult for even the righteous to be saved.

You can check all the translations and Greek words you want right here:

http://biblehub.com/1_peter/4-18.htm

It means what it means, folks.

[votivesoul]

In the Old Testament law, unless you were a son of Aaron, or a Levite, the demands upon you by the law were pretty slim, in comparison. Someone else always did the ministering for you, at the tabernacle or temple. Apart from the pilgrimage, your role was very limited. Why you didn't even do the singing!

And if you were a woman, your role was even more limited. Women didn't even have to "go up to Jerusalem" for the feasts.

Is this the case in the New Testament, when ALL are royal priests, and all, even women, are demanded to offer spiritual sacrifices, to ALL minister their gifts, to ALL be given over to prayer, worship, evangelism, and etc.?

No one in the OT ever had to confess Christ in order to remain in the Book of Life!

[votivesoul]

Law shows people their sins. Grace gives them a way out, but not an excuse. Grace abounds more wherever sin is present, but God forbid that we should continue in sin because grace abounds.

The great process of defeating the flesh by the power of the Spirit, of being completely reprogrammed by the Lord after a life of heathen godlessness, is very hard indeed.

Who else but me can remember the hard fasts, the desperate hours of prayer, the constant need for confession and repentance, as your formerly gentile mind still played its tricks on you?

It can take years for a person to truly have their house "empty, swept, and garnished".

Trusting a God that you cannot see, and trusting Him completely, with your entire life, and all that you are or hope to be, doesn't usually happen the moment you speak in tongues. It can be a lifelong journey of much trial and much error.

[shazeep]

nice imo

Originally Posted by votivesoul

But your average child anywhere in the world isn't being given that chance to hear the Good News and obey it.

This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven needs some kind of reflection here it seems. I think it is obvious that it may be taken figuratively, but i doubt you can find any support for the notion that one can die without hearing the Gospel, or can you?

Originally Posted by votivesoul

So guess what, all these young children running around in the world, all going to hell...

i always wondered how this could be supported, could you direct me to the passage? ty. Just even a ref for now, this isn't really the thread for a big discussion on it prolly. I'm not sure why you would insert this, when you know how disputed it is.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Adam, without the law of sin in his members, willingly choose to disobey God, and so, he ruined it for the rest of us.

i'm really not here to shred this whole post, i agree with most of it, but this is akin to blaming Jews for killing Jesus imo. I'm putting it down to misreading your shorthand, surely you believe that Adam was representative of us.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Anyone who thinks they can get on with life without ever sinning (i.e. transgressing God's law) must have a Messiah-complex and think they're Jesus.

in this light, Be perfect as I am needs to be heard some kind of way though. Iow there must then be some way to be perfect while still sinning, or maybe 'not being completely sinless' would be a better way to say it, that isn't reflecting salvation as we understand it, because God does not need repentance. So then there is some figurative way to understand this passage that remains unclear.

I do have to agree that the debate about whether coming to live a sinless life is even possible or not is moot though.

i know i seem to be arguing 'against' my pov here, but i think the question is actually more important than a definitive answer, which likely does not exist.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

In the OT, because the law of sin could never be broken, and the body of sins could not be destroyed, a person could certainly feel contrition, and remorse for any sin they committed, and go to the priest and offer the necessary sacrifice. But that was it.

No. Psalm 5 proves that is not true.

Not until Jesus came and said "sin no more", and offered His blood as atonement, and with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, could the law of sin be broken, and the body of sins destroyed.

What this means is, under the OT, a person was stuck in their sins, no matter how hard they tried. The call to an absolutely pure, sin-free life wasn't given because it wasn't possible. The stained conscience ever remained stained.

God called his people to love him with all their heart, soul, and might, and love their neighbour as themselves.

Under grace, the call is indeed given, and the expectation is sinlessness.

No more excuses under grace! God's divine power has been given to us, and with it, all things necessary so that we may live a life of godliness.

This is such a higher standard that OT law.

Higher standard? No. The purpose of the new covenant is to bring about the 'standard' that the law could not bring about, but which the law could only identify. There is, however, this: 'how much sorer punishment do you suppose shall he be thought worthy who has trodden the Son of God underfoot' etc.

Yes, by walking in the Spirit, trusting the Lord, and not the arm of the flesh, this becomes possible.

But where does judgment begin? At the house of God, right? And what saith the Apostle?

"If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear" (1 Peter 4:13).

Here, Simon Peter makes it abundantly clear, that in this New Covenant of Grace, it is very difficult for even the righteous to be saved.

The difficulty is not due to the nature of either grace or the law, but to man. God has made it easy to be saved: just believe, and all things are possible. But man complicates things with his unbelief and sin.

Again, the apostles never spoke of salvation by grace as being harder than law, they never spoke of the new covenant as being harder than the old. Under law the Gentiles had 'no hope'. Under grace they do. How is that harder?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

No. Psalm 5 proves that is not true.

How does Psalm 5 disprove this? It only shows mercy of God for people who fail. That is i fact why there were a multitude of sacrifices. God demanded obedience, and failure was expected, so he implemented sacrifices for forgiveness. Not all sis could be forgiven though, which was why some resulted in stoning.

But the law of sin could indeed NOT be broken under law. That's why Paul asked for deliverance! The law of sin manifested whenever Paul tried to do good and saw evil result instead.

God called his people to love him with all their heart, soul, and might, and love their neighbour as themselves.

But He did not say SIN EVER AGAIN. He told the adulterous woman to sin no more.

Higher standard? No. The purpose of the new covenant is to bring about the 'standard' that the law could not bring about, but which the law could only identify. There is, however, this: 'how much sorer punishment do you suppose shall he be thought worthy who has trodden the Son of God underfoot' etc.

I one sense, correct. But in another sense, the higher standard in the New is STOP SINNING. And law could not succeed in that while Grace can.

The difficulty is not due to the nature of either grace or the law, but to man. God has made it easy to be saved: just believe, and all things are possible.

Right, which is why Law cannot be kept perfectly without ability to maintain refraining from sin.

But man complicates things with his unbelief and sin.

More than that. Man complicates it by exerting will power to obey God without leaning on God's strength for empowerment.

Again, the apostles never spoke of salvation by grace as being harder than law, they never spoke of the new covenant as being harder than the old. Under law the Gentiles had 'no hope'. Under grace they do. How is that harder?

Under grace we have to stop leaning on flesh, and that to me is the hardest thing of all , since we're conditioned from birth to tyr OUR best without God's help.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I think that Paul illustrated how we are to live under grace best,

Romans 13:8-10 English Standard Version (ESV)
8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

That is the fruit of life under grace. And it shows that the fruit of the covenant of grace does not conflict with the results Law tried to accomplish in our lives. But the actual HOW TO is found here:

Romans 6:13 KJV Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Paul said we must do three things with understanding he provided, of which law had no concept.

1: KNOW the facts.

Romans 6:3-10 KJV Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (7) For he that is dead is freed from sin. (8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: (9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. (10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

2: RECKON those facts to yourself and apply them to you, and don't keep them as an interesting theory.

Romans 6:11 KJV Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

3: YIELD yourself with THAT concept of yourself to God for His empowerment.

Romans 6:12-14 KJV Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. (13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. (14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

KNOW, RECKON and YIELD.

Where is all of that in Law keeping? THIS is walking after the Spirit, or serving God in newness of Spirit.

[mfblume]

I love this issue so much because it's the most practical one we can find in the Bible.

Living an overcoming life above sinful activity.

One blessed thought is mentioned in Romans 8.

Romans 8:10-15 KJV And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. (13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (15) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Notice the contrast between DEATH and LIFE in verses 10 and 11 The body is DEAD because of sin. But The Spirit that resurrected Christ can QUICKEN or GIVE LIFE to our mortal bodies. The body may be dead, but praise God, the SPIRIT IS LIFE! That means it can do something about the dead state of our mortal bodies. And that is what verse 11 proceeds to explain.

Sin is what makes our bodies DEAD and in need of LIFE. The body is DEAD right now, in the sense that Paul is speaking about it. Right now as we read these words, our bodies are dead due to sin residing in them. Even after we are saved. So, we need the Spirit of God to ALSO be resident in us as most here reading this likely can claim.

That Spirit in us is able to enliven our mortal bodies. What would be the purpose of the Spirit enlivening our mortal bodies NOW as we speak? What does Paul mean? The answer is in verse 12.

(12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

If the Spirit enlivens our mortal bodies, we do not have to live after the flesh. That is the purpose. That is the desired effect.

What is living after the flesh? It is a life that Paul later explains leads to death.

We shall die if we live after the flesh.

Romans 8:13 KJV For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

So, the remedy to living after the flesh is to see the Spirit mortify the deeds of the body.

Now, we know this is speaking of the here and now when it speaks of quickening our mortal bodies, because verse 13 says we can mortify the deeds of the body in order to LIVE. If living after the flesh causes us to die, and Paul stated that we do not have to live after the flesh (verse 12) because the Spirit can quicken (or make alive) our mortal bodies (verse 11), then this is talking about a here and now issue. It's not resurrection from the grave as though the death it is speaking about is physical death or cessation of the heart.

When Paul said we can live by mortifying the deeds of the body THROUGH THE SPIRIT, he is rephrasing verse 11 when it says the Spirit MAKES ALIVE our mortal bodies.

And he uses a neat switch of terms here. OUR BODIES are dead because sin indwells them. But God changes all of that and our bodies LIVE and DEEDS OF THE BODY DIE instead! (Neat little play on words. Paul was a spiritual genius!).

Anyway, we then read in verse 14 that the people who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God. This is saying that the leading of the Spirit is the Spirit being utilized in our lives to do more than make us talk in tongues! It is cause for us to MORTIFY THE DEEDS OF THE BODY. If we are being led by the Spirit IN THIS MANNER -- having it enliven our mortal bodies to mortify the deeds of the body -- then we are MANIFESTED to the world to be the genuine sons of God.

A Greek scholar once noted that SONS in this instance refers to MATURE children. MATURE believers have learned to be led by the Spirit to the degree that He is able to mortify the deeds of their bodies in order to see them no longer live after the flesh and lead a life that is only a downward spiral to death.

And the way to see the Spirit do this in our lives first requires us to present ourselves to God in faith for this to happen. We yield to Him as people alive from the dead. And we were already told that those who are dead are free from sin in 6:7. And since we DIED with Christ, we are essentially DEAD TO SIN as a result. THAT is what we actually and genuinely understand about ourselves through the teaching of Romans 6. And when we really do believe that and apply it to our selves, or reckon it to be true OF US, we have FAITH that we can be empowered by God to not continue in sin like he introduced back in 6:2.

And God sees our FAITH in His work to accomplish this, and empowers, or ENLIVENS our mortal bodies. And we cooperate with Him and follow His prompting and live victoriously.

And the beautiful way in which Paul wrapped this all up was by saying...

Romans 8:15 KJV For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

This is not a Spirit of bondage only meant to leave us bound to a life after the flesh. We're not debtors to that! We are Children of God!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Under grace we have to stop leaning on flesh, and that to me is the hardest thing of all , since we're conditioned from birth to tyr OUR best without God's help.

So the 'hard' lies in us, not grace or the law.

[Esaias]

One thing is true: Rejecting grace will bring a harder punishment than rejecting the law did...