Sinful housework

[Luke]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

ok, it seems like you're saying that some christians are unsanctified while some christians are sanctified...

One question, how many years for you from the time you got saved to the time you got sanctified?

For me it was many years because i did not even know it was possible. I had never had any teaching on the possiblity of being entirerly sanctified in this life.

As to the first part of your comment yes i am saying that some christians are not entirerly sanctified. Entire sanctification is a second work of grace performed by God whereby the christian is made holy in an instant.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Luke

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Notice here heart purity is commanded. It should also be seen that this command is not given to sinners since they also receive instruction in this verse but it is addressed to those who have been saved and now are being pulled two ways. The wording here is perfect for those who find themselves in the struggle mentioned in Romans 7.

Why do so many always see "commandments" where there are none?

This isn't a commandment... it's an admonition to born again believers to cease sin and worldly thinking that they might... grow in sanctification.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Luke

For me it was many years because i did not even know it was possible. I had never had any teaching on the possiblity of being entirerly sanctified in this life.

So, as a born again believer, you grew into embracing the doctrine of entire sanctification. lol

As to the first part of your comment yes i am saying that some christians are not entirerly sanctified. Entire sanctification is a second work of grace performed by God whereby the christian is made holy in an instant.

Sanctification isn't a second work of grace. It is the entire work of grace. It progressively takes the believer to higher levels of consecration before God as the saint learns more about God, learns to pray and hear God, and discovers what it is that God truly desires of them as individuals. In this process... they are perfect. Why? Because the process is perfect.

[Aquila]

Luke... if in two weeks God takes you a level higher in your sanctification (for example convicts you of having the internet in your home or such like)... am I to believe at that time that you were not "entirely sanctified" during this conversation???

How does the doctrine of entire sanctification grapple with the reality one's own personal progression and growth in sanctification?

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Let's look at the text...

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Eph. 5:25-27

This is talking about marriage and the relationship between husband and wife. Husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves the church. Husbands are to give of themselves as Christ gave of Himself, that He might present us to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, wrinkle, or any such thing, but that we should be holy and without blemish.

We can draw a lot from this with regards to the relationship between husband and wife. However, let's focus on what is said of the church.

We all believe that the church should be without spot, wrinkle, or any such thing, and that we should be holy and without blemish.

I think the major part of the debate is...

What makes us holy and without blemish? And what is the nature of that "holiness"?

-Is it based on behavior?
-Is it based on disposition?
-Is it based on following a set body of laws?
-Is it based on a legally imputed righteousness in God's eyes?
-Is it based on an imputed righteousness that comes from spiritual union with God?
-Is holiness relative to the process of sanctification?

All these questions come into play. And so many differ on what the Bible teaches regarding these questions.

Is it based on behavior?

No

-Is it based on disposition?

No

-Is it based on following a set body of laws?

No

-Is it based on a legally imputed righteousness in God's eyes?

No

-Is it based on an imputed righteousness that comes from spiritual union with God?

No

-Is holiness relative to the process of sanctification?

No

We are sanctified by God:

1 Thess 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

It is by faith in Jesus:

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

It is through the Blood that Jesus shed:

Heb 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Luke... if in two weeks God takes you a level higher in your sanctification (for example convicts you of having the internet in your home or such like)... am I to believe at that time that you were not "entirely sanctified" during this conversation???

How does the doctrine of entire sanctification grapple with the reality one's own personal progression and growth in sanctification?

We grow in grace not in sanctifiaction. No where in the Bible are we ever told to grow into holiness or to grow in sanctification. As to the example that you posed it would fall under the heading of righteousness not holiness. Works as shown by John deal with righteousness:

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Righteousness is what we do or how we act.

Holiness is what we are.

1 Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

As to growth into holiness this makes no sense when looked at in the light of what growth is. This fact is clearly seen in two facts about growth:

1. A male child must br a male child before he can grow as male child or a bean plant must first be a bean seed before it can grow into a bean plant. In other words a child male of female is always a human from the moment of conception it is what it is going to be. The same is true in the plant world a plant has to start from a seed of its type before it can grow. To simplify this even more think about it this way no matter how long a bean plant grows it will never grow into a watermellon plant it will always be a bean plant. Same way in a spiritual sense if we are to be holy we must be made holy from our very nature.

2. The second fact is much like the first in that no matter how much one grows it always reamins what it was to begin with. Take a human for instance the day it is born it is 100% a human it can never be more of a human than it is the day it was born. Growth brings about change in size and ability but not change of nature.

[MarieA27]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

While we're asking questions, let me ask you this... did Jesus ever have to repent? with regards to the context of this statement that you made: "If we do the same as He did, we will be perfect."

This reasoning is not scriptural at all: "If, when we go through the same thing, and do the same act as He acted in the same situations are not considered perfect?" Again, ask yourself the question... did Jesus ever have to repent? Yes, he was tempted and tried as we are, but the difference is, HE WAS WITHOUT SIN. Jesus never had to repent. We can never say that. We were not born with the nature of God, but He was.

I never saw your question where you asked what I think being perfect in God means. It really doesn't matter what I think anyway, it only matters what the Word says.

But since you asked to know what I think being perfect means, I personally think it means to walk before Him as best I possibly can, allowing the spirit of God to transform me and help me to be an overcomer over the weights of sin that would beset me. It is being transparent
to the word of God, and allowing myself to be scrutinized by the Spirit of the Lord to weed out, and root out anything in my life that is not producing fruit of the spirit, so that I can live an overcoming life with the spirit and the mind of Christ reigning in me.

That is my simple definition, perhaps not the best one, but the one I see in scripture.

I was mainly asking, because you keep saying that we can't be perfect, and was wondering how you defined it since you were saying that. By your definition up there, I don't see why you can't be perfect based on what you said.

And also, do you view perfect as someone who has NEVER sinned? And if someone have sinned, but since coming into the truth of God, they made their way to cease from sinning, and walked and lived their life according to the scriptures, in their heart, words and deeds, do you still not see that person as perfect?

Also you keep talking about once you have obtained perfection, that you can just rest and don't have to worry about anything anymore, and I don't think that I've had said that, nor do I believe that.

I partially define perfection as not sinning, living a holy and righteous life, letting the word govern your actions, your deeds, your words, living a life according to the scriptures, doing what you know to do that is right, not letting sin reign in your body, not giving place to the devil in your heart. Pretty much what MTD said, being pure in your heart through all of this.


I don't view sin as some basic, natural humanity, as if sin is just being human. I view sin as simply disobedience to God.

[renee819]

Luke, I've heard the term, but what is 'the second work of grace? Isn't that a Nazerine term?
Since the term is not in the Bible, how would you know that you had received it? And wouldn't that be the Holy Ghost?

No, wait, Repentance must be the first
Baptism, the second.
That would make the Holy Ghost the 'third work of grace.'

I believe that we must die daily, and as we do so, we are sanctified. If we don't, we are not sanctified.

[Michael The Disciple]

Will we see God without holiness?

Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Heb 12:14

Will we see God if our hearts are not pure?

Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God. Matt. 5:8

We cannot separate the two.

Many Christians today speak as if these were impossible to attain. The scriptures present these things as the basic Christian life.

Its holiness or Hell.

So when people say we all sin every day my hope is that they are just repeating the tired old cliché invented by Evangelicals and is not really true about themselves.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by renee819

Luke, I've heard the term, but what is 'the second work of grace? Isn't that a Nazerine term?
Since the term is not in the Bible, how would you know that you had received it? And wouldn't that be the Holy Ghost?

No, wait, Repentance must be the first
Baptism, the second.
That would make the Holy Ghost the 'third work of grace.'

I believe that we must die daily, and as we do so, we are sanctified. If we don't, we are not sanctified.

The term second work of grace is a wesleyan term and predates the Nazerene church.

The term comes from the fact that like salvation is a work of grace wrought in the life of a sinner making him/her a christian so also sanctification is a work of grace subsequent to salvation in the heart of a christian to make him/her holy. As it is subsequent to salvation the first work of grace it of necessity is the second work of grace.

As to it in the Bible being called specificly a second grace many will point to:

2 Corinthians 1:15 And in this confidence I was minded to come unto you before, that ye might have a second benefit;

Because the word translated benefit has it first and primary meaning as Grace.