Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Father?

[Michael The Disciple]

Aquila

Oneness means "oneness"... not "singleness".

If Jesus IS the Father... why did He pray to the Father???

Let us establish the fact first of all that Jesus was the ONLY GOD of the OT. Then after one gets that we can bring forth the interactions between Christ and the Father.

Are you there yet? Can you see Christ existed before he was a man? As the ROCK OF ISRAEL?

[Michael The Disciple]

Paul gave the Corinthians a key to understand who Christ is.

He said in the OT there was a ROCK with the Jews who came out of Egypt. The key=THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST. 1 Cor. 10:4

Using that key observe:

34When he slew them, then they sought him: and they returned and inquired early after God.
35And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer. Psalms 78:34-35

Who was their rock? THE MOST HIGH GOD.

The ROCK WAS THE MOST HIGH GOD.

The apostle taught THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST.

So in the OT Christ was higher than any other god!

Isnt this wonderful? To discover the glory and majesty of Jesus!

[Michael The Disciple]

Now at the risk of sounding somewhat redundant let us not forget the key the apostle gave to the Corinthian Church as to who Christ is.

There was a ROCK with Israel in the OT. That rock was Christ according to Paul. 1 Cor. 10:4

Shall we take another look at that rock?

To shew that YHWH is upright: he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him. Psalms 92:15

YHWH was the rock of the OT. Paul said THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST?

Was Paul a liar? A deceiving false teacher? Or did he know something modern Apostolics have forgotten?

Namely Christ is YHWH himself!

[Sean]

Jesus did not physically pre-exist before his birth. The Father that dwelled in him was alone in creation and chose to dwell in His human son upon birth.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Sean

Jesus did not physically pre-exist before his birth. The Father that dwelled in him was alone in creation and chose to dwell in His human son upon birth.

I did not say he existed physically before his birth.

John the beloved did say "he was in the world and the world was made BY HIM and the world knew him not". John 1:10

He pre existed as GOD THE ETERNAL FATHER before his birth. And as so he ALONE was the creator.

Of course in that time he was not known as "Jesus". He was known as YHWH.

Apparently you dont know Jesus as John knew him.

[Sean]

I know you didnt say that, I was just putting it out there.

Im sure I dont know Jesus like John knew Him.

I just dont tell folks that Jesus preexisted as the Father, because the Jesus that hung out with John was a normal human being, like John. He was sinless and he was created by the Father in the womb of Mary.

The Father inside of Jesus was the divinity of Jesus. It is also known as the Holy Ghost.

Jesus was filled with the Holy Ghost.

Why was he filled with the Holy Ghost as a human?

To give him the ability to live a sinless life and NOT fail the will of the Father that was inside of him.

[Michael The Disciple]

I will go with the revelation of THE ROCK just one more time.

Paul had given the Corinthian Church a "key" to understand who Christ was in the OT.

1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

So if we can find the Rock that was with Israel we will have found Christ in the OT.

For one last time (maybe). This is altogether spectacular!

Isaiah 44:8 NKJ

8Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no ROCK; I know not any.

The God of the OT informs us there is NO ROCK beside him!

And if there is no ROCK beside the one who is the only God can we not be assured this is speaking of the one whom Paul said "AND THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST"!

YES! We believe it because it is TRUE!

Oh Apostolic friends shall we not rejoice with gladness! Does not this bring to mind why we became "Apostolic" in the first place!

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Sean

I know you didnt say that, I was just putting it out there.

Im sure I dont know Jesus like John knew Him.

I just dont tell folks that Jesus preexisted as the Father, because the Jesus that hung out with John was a normal human being, like John. He was sinless and he was created by the Father in the womb of Mary.

The Father inside of Jesus was the divinity of Jesus. It is also known as the Holy Ghost.

Jesus was filled with the Holy Ghost.

Why was he filled with the Holy Ghost as a human?

To give him the ability to live a sinless life and NOT fail the will of the Father that was inside of him.

Sean, You are correct in believing Jesus was/is a man. All the older Apostolic teachers agreed to that.

Where you greatly err is in not understanding that he ALSO existed simultaneously as YHWH outside of his humanity.

I have already proved this. Yet I have only scratched the surface a little bit. Scripture will show NO ONE was YHWH in the OT except the one we know now as "Jesus".

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Sean, You are correct in believing Jesus was/is a man. All the older Apostolic teachers agreed to that.

Where you greatly err is in not understanding that he ALSO existed simultaneously as YHWH outside of his humanity.

I have already proved this. Yet I have only scratched the surface a little bit. Scripture will show NO ONE was YHWH in the OT except the one we know now as "Jesus".

The problem I have is how we teach folks that Jesus did not preexist, but he was always there physically.

He had a point of creation... God made him...When did God make him?


The Bible says Jesus was made.....But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Jesus HAD the Holy Ghost is different from Jesus IS the Holy Ghost.


Which one is it?

Jesus in his deity IS the Holy Spirit.

Is Jesus the Lord?

3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. Acts 9:3-5

Paul believed Jesus was the Lord.

Did Paul teach the Lord was the Spirit of God?

15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:15-16

So without doubt Jesus is THAT SPIRIT.

And yet as to his HUMANITY no doubt Jesus was filled with the Spirit. We agree.

So the answer is Jesus as to deity IS the Spirit. As to humanity he HAS the Spirit.