A Picture of Grace from God's Point of View

[shazeep]

Sorry, your entire universe is so different than mine when you read Jesus say that lack of baptism and belief in Him makes one damned, and cannot walk away and apply that to ANYTHING. As best as I can see it, that effectively makes the word of God null and void.

the point is hopefully to come to a more complete understanding of these passages; one that will admittedly mock getting re-baptized "the right way," and show the difference in belief and faith, if there is any.

I already stated we cannot forgive someone if the bible does not forgive. God demands a person to seek forgiveness and repent in order for Him to forgive. He leads people to repentance. But how can we forgive someone when God's word says they're lost?

indeed. How can we love our enemies? How can we turn the other cheek? You put burdens on forgive, and you will be forgiven that i do not find in Scripture.

You already mocked the idea of taking scripture for what it says as being "fundamentalist". So, you're in a totally different world.

well, i do notice that when i quote Scripture, it is made of no effect, yes.

Jesus demonstrated it is possible for a person to be already condemned according to God and His word, and for us to simply try to recover them. You act as though our acceptance of God's judgment makes us the judge!

we are freed from the law, of sin and death; why not accept God's Grace? Yes, it is a profound step, one that requires dying to self more completely, and few are able to let go of that part, as it so completely defines them. But this is what "changing your mind" is all about. You have condemned yourself, imo, but i am no better, and there is always hope for either of us.

Sure! All Catholics are lost! I say that with no less emphasis than I do in the case of Muslims. All hindus are lost. All buddhists are lost. Are you getting my point yet?

As you think, so are you, but let's focus on Catholics; why are they lost? Pardon me if i've forgotten the rhetoric, which i think centered around the pope or something, i forget.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

indeed. How can we love our enemies? How can we turn the other cheek? You put burdens on forgive, and you will be forgiven that i do not find in Scripture.

I can forgive them for being muslims and get along nicely. I have no problem with anyone. They're still lost, though.


If you mean it that way.

You already mocked the idea of taking scripture for what it says as being "fundamentalist". So, you're in a totally different world.

well, i do notice that when i quote Scripture, it is made of no effect, yes.

Scripture? When you say something about scripture and I ask to discuss it and compare thoughts with it, you run. Then you once stopped and said, ok, let's discuss. I no sooner started to chat and then you ran again. So back your words up this time.

Jesus demonstrated it is possible for a person to be already condemned according to God and His word, and for us to simply try to recover them. You act as though our acceptance of God's judgment makes us the judge!

we are freed from the law, of sin and death; why not accept God's Grace?

Id did and am now saved.

Yes, it is a profound step, one that requires dying to self more completely, and few are able to let go of that part, as it so completely defines them. But this is what "changing your mind" is all about. You have condemned yourself, imo, but i am no better, and there is always hope for either of us.

Sure! All Catholics are lost! I say that with no less emphasis than I do in the case of Muslims. All hindus are lost. All buddhists are lost. Are you getting my point yet?

As you think, so are you, but let's focus on Catholics; why are they lost? Pardon me if i've forgotten the rhetoric, which i think centered around the pope or something, i forget.

Catholics are lost since they do not believe the work on the cross makes us righteous without us lifting a finger of good deeds to achieve that righteousness.

Now, did you say you had scripture and would discuss?

lol

Watch the old dodge game again, folks.

Meanwhile...

Why is it judgmental to read this verse...

John 3:18 KJV He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

...And chat with someone who tells you that they do not believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God, and inform them the bible says they are condemned?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Yes you did say it. I can hunt it up if you insist.

ok, i insist.

Originally Posted by mfblume

No, and that is a lying misrepresentation of my stance. I always said the WORD is what is right. Nothing else. But then again you cannot take the word for what it says, and think it's deception on God's part to purposely supply contradictions to entrap people, leaving those who actually believe Mark 16:16 is true to be lost.

again, i note that when you quote Scripture It is sacrosanct; but when i quote Scripture It is reasoned away. The point is to reconcile those believers in Mark with God's Grace, not condemn them. And where did you get this "deception" thing? What is that?

Originally Posted by mfblume

Catholics are lost. But they as well as muslims and buddhists and hindus, and whoever else denies the cross, can be saved if they accept it. Anything else?

There was a man who owned a vineyard, and he had two sons...lol. Who defines "acceptance" or denial, here? Lemme guess--the parts of Scripture that you quote, and not the parts that i quote.

How do Catholics "deny" the cross?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

ok, i insist.

ok will find it after work.

again, i note that when you quote Scripture It is sacrosanct; but when i quote Scripture It is reasoned away.

Let's get a verse and prove your claim. every time I get scripture you refuse to talk. very telling, really.

The point is to reconcile those believers in Mark with God's Grace, not condemn them.

You cannot condemn them. They're already condemned. Don't you get that yet?

Jesus said he came to save them since they're already condemned.

And where did you get this "deception" thing? What is that?

You tell me. You said God purposely put contradictions in his word.

There was a man who owned a vineyard, and he had two sons...lol. Who defines "acceptance" or denial, here? Lemme guess--the parts of Scripture that you quote, and not the parts that i quote.

deal with the whole passage and context. quote it. let's discuss it. prove your assumption of context. you won't and you run if I do. I respond to all passages with validation of my claims. you troll and run.

How do Catholics "deny" the cross?

I actually did explain how right after I noted that. read it again.

oh by the way I need not forgive Muslims since they did nothing to me and I have nothing against them to forgive them of.

[votivesoul]

2 Corinthians 4:1-6,

1. Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2. But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

He who wrote the above also, previous to the letter from which the above is taken, wrote this:

1 Corinthians 15:1-19,

1. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2. By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5. And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6. After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9. For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10. But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
11. Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
12. Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13. But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14. And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17. And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

Now, we can argue whether or not Paul's epistles are authoritative and belong in the Canon of Holy Scripture, or not, but if we have any reason to believe Paul's letters are authoritative and do belong in the Canon of Holy Scripture, then we are right to make the following case, based upon what he wrote:

The Good News of Jesus Christ, is that Christ died, was buried, and rose again the third day.

This Good News can be hidden from the sight of those who do not believe, by the "god of this world", an euphemism, no doubt, for Satan, because he blinds them from seeing the truth. Now, if the Gospel is hidden to them that are lost, because they have been blinded by Satan, and if the Gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, to deny Jesus died on the cross, to deny that He was buried, and to deny that He rose from the dead, is to deny the Gospel, that is, the Gospel Paul said saves a person; indeed to deny these things is evident proof of the blinding that Satan causes upon those that believe not.

Therefore, it doesn't matter who it is, but especially of the Muslim, and yes I've met and am friends with a Muslim from Nigeria named Rasheedah Y., a beautiful African woman and mother, who is quite kind and peaceable, and loves us dearly, yet believes not the Gospel, nor that Jesus is the Son of God, nor yet that He died on the cross and rose from the dead.

She then, like all other Muslims, are blind, just as Paul wrote. The light of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ cannot be seen by her, because she abides in unbelief. Until she repents, the "scales", to use a Pauline term, will never fall off her eyes.

She, as much as any so-called believer in Jesus, who denies Jesus rose from the dead, are of all people most miserable, because they only have hope of Him in this life. How differs this from a Muslim that not only believes Jesus didn't resurrect from the dead, but also believes He never even died (but rather, was assumed into Heaven)?!

So, my dear shazeep, it isn't illogical, unreasonable, or judgmental to say of any one group of people, especially those who deny Jesus is the Son of God, the Son of the Father, or who deny He died on a cross and rose again, like Muslims do, to say with Paul "that if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost".

[votivesoul]

Furthermore,

...to us there is one God, the Father... (1 Corinthians 8:6).

Who is this "one God, the Father"? Paul writes and makes it clear that this "one God, the Father", is God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This, too, is denied by Muslims, as they do not believe Jesus is the Son of this "one God, the Father". This shows that the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ is not Allah of the Qu'ran, since Allah of the Qu'ran has no Son. This means Muslims are not worshiping the same "one God, the Father" that Christians worship.

[votivesoul]

Lastly,

Jesus Christ, by dying on the cross, tasted death for every person, by the grace of God. To deny His death on the cross is to reject the grace of God. Muslims deny His death on the cross, and thereby reject the grace of God.

This is why a Muslim is not presently saved from their sins, and won't be at the Judgment Seat of Christ. For as they meet the Messiah, with holes in His hands, and feet, and side, and they see the Risen Lord, their very testimony about Him will condemn them at their Judgment.

For all their life, a Muslim says Jesus wasn't crucified, and yet, when they meet Him, they will meet Him WHO WAS CRUCIFIED. Bearing false witness about someone is a capital offense.

All liars shall have their part in the lake that burns with fire.

shazeep, we take up our crosses and follow Christ daily. Why? Why did Jesus take up His cross?

Was it not to be the ransom for the lost? Was it not to offer atonement for the sins of the world? Was it not to propitiate God the Father? Was it not to be the Savior of the World? Was it not indeed to, by the grace of God, taste death for every person who ever lived or will live?

So, that being the case, why do we take up our crosses daily and follow Him to the Place of the Skull?

To replicate on earth, in a metaphorical way, in our own lives, what Jesus did for every person we meet. We show the Lord's death until He comes. This is what communion is all about: showing each other and the world that we believe Christ's body was broken and His blood was shed, on a cross, that we might be delivered from the fear of death, even the bondage of Satan himself.

When anyone denies the cross, they deny Jesus. They deny the body and blood of the Lord. They deny salvation, which is communion with Christ. They deny the testimony of the church, which is in communion with Christ. They deny the grace of God. They deny the propitiation, atonement, and ransom.

There is no remission of sins for ANYONE who denies these things.

You want to take this discussion out of the theoretical, and make it be about Catholics, or some other group.

Why? Why not you yourself go and evangelize some Muslims and confront them with the reality that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He died on the cross, and was raised from the dead, by the glory of God the Father, and not Allah of the Qu'ran.

See what happens. If they believe you, they will convert and no longer stay Muslim. If they don't believe you, will you dust your feet off as you are required by the Christ?

Will you even try to evangelize a Muslim with these truths, or go on with the same arguments you've been using here at AFF, and so, not bother?

[mfblume]

Shazeep,

You said

The point is to reconcile those believers in Mark with God's Grace, not condemn them.

Show me how you take Mark 16:16 and reconcile it with believers by grace and not condemning them, (while no one is condemning anyone around here anyway, except you condemning me).

Mar 16:16 KJV He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Shazeep,

You said

Show me how you take Mark 16:16 and reconcile it with believers by grace and not condemning them, (while no one is condemning anyone around here anyway, except you condemning me).

Mar 16:16 KJV He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

No Muslims are baptized in Jesus name.

Therefore Muslims are DAMNED.

[shazeep]

boy, that is one dark god you guys serve, uncounted billions in hell, and the four of you in heaven. So, you have accepted this huge legal edifice of salvation, the definitions of which you cannot even verify, as has already been shown at "saved," "believe," and prolly even "baptize," yet you are comfortable enough with the rest of Scripture--the various warnings about pride in it, what "accuser" means etc--that you feel confident enough to declare that you know how God judges people?

And it turns out that it really isn't one's heart that God judges, but one's public declarations? Do i have that right? Anything up there you might put differently?