History of Tithes in the Church

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I have never asked a minister who preached for me if they tithe or not.

Do you review who tithe and who doesn't in your contribution accounting software?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by mfblume

1 Cor 9 speaks about the believer supporting the minister who ministers to the believer. Paul allowed himself to forego that due to the carnality of believers who balked at supporting the ministry to their own shame. But that's the clear context of 1 Cor 9.

Once again. The ninth chapter of 1 Corinthians is not about tithes. Nor is it about pastors. Paul was asserting that it was his right as an APOSTLE to have food and drink provided to them.

He clearly taught elders to support the church (not that the church should support them).

Do you admit that this is true?

Once again, in the scripture that I posted, that you responded to above, did Paul clearly instruct the elders to work with their hands and support the church?

Yes?

No?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I know of some, but with the advent of the internet people are learning the truth. Lol

You know you’re right. And it’s really sad that saints have to learn the truth about tithing on the internet. Because their pastor isn’t teaching them the truth.

Isn’t that sad?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I teach that people can give tithes and I don't use the Old Testament to prove it or support it.

So, you use the OT to teach tithing, BUT you don’t teach tithing according to the OT. That’s kind of odd.

Originally Posted by mfblume

I just say that they gave tithes back then and you can do that today as well. I don't go into anything about people being cursed if they don't do it like the law did. I don't go into anything about what exactly was tithes in the old testament.

So you don’t teach that tithes was never money? In the entire Bible? Instead it was food?

It sounds like EXTREMELY sloppy teaching to me. Are you afraid you’ll be getting zucchini instead of money?

Teach the word! Hold nothing back. Teach them what the tithe was, and what it wasn’t, and who was eligible, or not to receive it. Why hold back?

Originally Posted by mfblume

I just use it to say that it's a good example of how you can give. So don't put words in my mouth. The way you described it, how that people can give a tenth and it's cool to do so, is exactly how I do it. I don't bring any legalities of Law and don't use the law to prove it or anything like that. Sacrifice is in the Old Testament too, and we all believe we need to sacrifice today as well. But we don't sacrifice in exactly the precise way that they did in the old testament. But we still use the principle of sacrifice. That's the issue, and that's why I say you're twisting what I'm saying because I never said anything about using the law to prove giving of tithes.

You’re right that we don’t do tithing the same. Pastors have adjusted it. One tenth of your food is not the same value as one tenth of your income. Most people spend about one tenth of their income on food. So one tenth of their food would be one hundredth of their income.

I think I may be about to figure out why you don’t teach what the tithe really was in the OT.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

You know you’re right. And it’s really sad that saints have to learn the truth about tithing on the internet. Because their pastor isn’t teaching them the truth.

Isn’t that sad?

I think there are multiple things at work on this. Tithing has been such a part of church teaching for so long that few question it. There are lots of references that cast a positive light upon tithing in scripture, although context is most often misapplied. Honestly, I was hardcore pro tithing until I stumbled across some Russel Kelley videos on the internet and I totally changed my stance. All the the years that I miss applied Malachi 3 was not intentional. I thought I was preaching truth and all my circles agreed so nothing ever challenged the belief.

Other pro tithe teachers often may never even see it and if they do, they have much at stake. Damaging relationships with peers, losing their churches, losing saints in the churches, etc… It is easy for anyone to say what they would do on a forum such as this, but what have you sacrificed to herald this truth. If you where vocal about anti tithing in most Christian denominations the saints would probably view you as heretic. Tradition is a hard thing to be broken and not everyone is intentionally neglecting this truth, and others have much to lose.

I have met multitudes of honest, loving, well meaning, giving, etc.. ministers that teach tithing. It is no different then sabbath keeping and any other Old Testament teaching, we all have been guilty of picking how and which commands we are to keep in the New Testament church. Even though you have this revelation about tithing, you must be careful that you do not use it unwisely. There is a lot of character defamation that goes on from anti tithers against at pro tithe teachers on these forums.

There have even been questions on this thread about how Bro. Blume and I’s local churches handle church resources which are insulting to a persons character. I will not teach tithing as a New Testament commandment again, since I have came to the truth. Although, I will continue reference tithing (because it is biblical) and even suggest it as a good practice, but not ever in such a way that is heaven or hell.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I think there are multiple things at work on this. Tithing has been such a part of church teaching for so long that few question it.

Let me begin by saying that you have said a lot of things that are true in this post. I’m not bashing you, I am trying to teach you. You seem to be teachable which is a pretty uncommon characteristic among preachers.

Having said that, tithing doctrine has been changing at least since the crucifixion of Christ. It hasn’t been a settled doctrine and it still isn’t. I have done a lot of studying on tithing and it is surprising to me that the earliest example of tithing being rendered in money that I have been able to verify is fewer than two hundred years ago. Look up the Tithes Commutation Act, if your interested.

The Tithe Commutation Act, 1836 (6&7 Will. IV, c. 71) allowed payment of tithes in kind to be substituted by money payments.

Notice the year (1836) and the fact that the Act “allowed” the tithe to be substituted for money. So it’s not as long ago as you might think. Also, on this continent, (but before the Revolutionary War) tithes was actually paid in tobacco (think about it) and was levied according to how many slaves you owned, and what gender or even race they were. So, the takeaway should be that false doctrine can change. If it can get worse, maybe it can get better as well.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I

There are lots of references that cast a positive light upon tithing in scripture, although context is most often misapplied. Honestly, I was hardcore pro tithing until I stumbled across some Russel Kelley videos on the internet and I totally changed my stance.

There are lots of references that cast a positive light on tithing, BUT, there are zero references in scripture that cast a positive light on THIS tithe doctrine that is taught today. Because it didn’t exist in the Bible.

You mention stumbling on Russel Kelley videos and people learning from the internet. Thank God for that. I have been accused of learning my tithe doctrine from the internet, but it’s not true. I learned it from the Bible.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

All the the years that I miss applied Malachi 3 was not intentional. I thought I was preaching truth and all my circles agreed so nothing ever challenged the belief.

This right here.

It is painfully obvious that the various types of tithe doctrine that is taught today did not come from the Bible. What you say about nobody challenging your beliefs is a huge indication of where this false doctrine came from. It’s preachers getting together and patting each other on the back and not comparing their self serving doctrine to God’s word. And of course silencing anyone who dares to ask for scripture to verify their opinion. (Have you noticed how many times I have requested scriptural support for doctrine?)

This is no different than farmers lamenting the low price of a bushel of corn. Or Sheetrock finishers complaining about the square foot price of hanging rock. Everyone likes to believe they provide a valuable service. But pastors are the only ones that individually (not a government entity) have the hubris to proclaim entitlement to a tenth of our income. Think about that.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I

Other pro tithe teachers often may never even see it and if they do, they have much at stake. Damaging relationships with peers, losing their churches, losing saints in the churches, etc… It is easy for anyone to say what they would do on a forum such as this, but what have you sacrificed to herald this truth. If you where vocal about anti tithing in most Christian denominations the saints would probably view you as heretic. Tradition is a hard thing to be broken and not everyone is intentionally neglecting this truth, and others have much to lose.

I have a much different perspective on this than yours. (Obviously). There is none so blind as he who will not see. These preachers that believe they are right also believe they shouldn’t have to stoop so low as to support their doctrine with scripture. I call it willful ignorance. They don’t know the truth, and they are determined to not learn the truth.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I

I have met multitudes of honest, loving, well meaning, giving, etc.. ministers that teach tithing. It is no different then sabbath keeping and any other Old Testament teaching, we all have been guilty of picking how and which commands we are to keep in the New Testament church. Even though you have this revelation about tithing, you must be careful that you do not use it unwisely. There is a lot of character defamation that goes on from anti tithers against at pro tithe teachers on these forums.

In regards to the bold statement above, I appreciate the advice and I try to be careful. However, if you didn’t notice, I usually preach to the preachers. They should long be weaned from the milk of the word and ready to move on to meat and potatoes.

Otherwise . . .
I have met multitudes of honest, loving, well meaning, giving, etc. Muslims, Catholics, alcoholics, preachers, pastors, etc. . But they being all that doesn’t save them. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. And according to scripture ALL liars are going there.

How do you preach to an alcoholic about all drunkards are going to hell, without saying it?

Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

In the above verse, thieves, covetous, extortioners, all can be directly tied to the pastors that preach commonly held tenets of the tithe doctrine.

They steal through deceptively manipulating the scripture, they covet money that they are not entitled to, and in some cases, they extort money from the saints by claiming that they can’t be saved unless they give one tenth of their income.

If we don’t tell a drunkard that being so will put him in hell, will he be in heaven, because we didn’t preach to him?

If we don’t tell a preacher that lying about tithes will put him in hell, is he going to make it to heaven?

It something to think about. Are our pastors in danger of hellfire. Paul mentioned that lest he preaching to them, he himself should become a castaway. We don’t seem to believe a pastor can be lost.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

There have even been questions on this thread about how Bro. Blume and I’s local churches handle church resources which are insulting to a persons character. I will not teach tithing as a New Testament commandment again, since I have came to the truth. Although, I will continue reference tithing (because it is biblical) and even suggest it as a good practice, but not ever in such a way that is heaven or hell.

If what the word of God says is insulting to yours and Brother Blume’s character, the obvious choice would be to repent. However, if it’s my words, and they are inconsistent with scripture, or even contradict scripture, I wouldn’t worry about it at all.

[coksiw]

So, first mfblume told me "It's just giving. Open your eyes.".
To what I said "I need to open my eyes to something that it was not taught or practiced by the Apostles in the NT? You are the one deviating from God's will, not me".

Then next thing is he accuses me of "twisting" his word. First, that's a pretty strange usage of the phrase "twisting words", to what I asked him to prove it how "I need to open my eyes to something that it was not taught or practiced by the Apostles in the NT? You are the one deviating from God's will, not me" is "twisting his word"? Then he comes with a defense nothing to do with the original context of my words. I still believe he is deviating from God's will, by teaching any tithing position, whether is "pro hard" or "soft stance".

Second, notice that he didn't say "misunderstanding" his word, but instead he used the word "twisting" to clearly vilify me. Now he is the victim, and I'm the hangman.

The next thing is I'm being accused of insulting mflblume and good samaritan because of asking them a direct question about tithing donors handling, to show clearly, how the teaching of tithing, whether you have a hard core stance or a soft stance, it does drive you to judge saints according to that "bar" you are setting, and show favor to those that meet the bar. That's unbiblical, and shows one of the typical consequences of such false doctrine, which is not God's will.
Mfblume and good samaritan decided to engage in a public debate here in this Forum about tithing. You have to expect uncomfortable questions when you do that. If that's hitting close home, maybe it is because of a reality. They have the choice to not engage or to not answer.

In this whole thread, I did not call people names or accused them of evil intentions to rich themselves, but rather fervently defied that false doctrine, and asked questions to show the wrongs it causes against congregations, and I clearly challenged all those that teach it to step up for Biblical truth and put to the side consequences. I have not accused once any participant in this thread of evil intentions of greed or enriching themselves or taking advantage of the saints, but rather how messed up that false doctrine is and how has negative consequences on the congregation. As I said, I will say it again: even soft stances do create a bar and makes it a moral issue to which you compare people to, and all of that is negative to the congregation, and unbiblical.

If history teaches us anything it is this: if we want to see a reformation in the Pentecostal movement, it has to come from those that have great influence over congregations, stepping up and preaching against it. If a saint is the one that attempts that, he will be silenced, and vilified, and excluded. Pastors are the ones that need to stand for truth to truly create a fellowship network as an alternative to the mainstream Apostolic Pentecostal movement. But as good samaritan said, there is too much at stake they are not willing to give up, however, I believe there is a chance some will, and without dropping holiness or adopting full preterism (as some independents unfortunately do).

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by coksiw

...I have not accused once any participant in this thread of evil intentions of greed or enriching themselves or taking advantage of the saints...

Actually, I did say that tithing teachers are likely to not recognize the truth because they benefit from it or they are afraid of losing the fellowship. That's not accusing them of greed, or evil, but of fear of losing income or fellowship. That's what I said also in the same context that they point that saints that do not tithe lack faith, when in reality it may be quite the opposite, that the tithing teachers are the one lacking faith when they fear the consequences of embracing the truth.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

So, you use the OT to teach tithing,

No.

BUT you don’t teach tithing according to the OT. That’s kind of odd.

No, because I do not teach tithes from the OT.

So you don’t teach that tithes was never money? In the entire Bible? Instead it was food?

I teach people can tithe their money or not tithe it. I do not stipulate anything.

It sounds like EXTREMELY sloppy teaching to me. Are you afraid you’ll be getting zucchini instead of money?

Get real and stop the mockery. What is it with you guys?

Our day uses MONEY and we do not barter in our society like they did. You're missing the forest for the trees.

Teach the word! Hold nothing back.

I do.

Teach them what the tithe was, and what it wasn’t, and who was eligible, or not to receive it. Why hold back?

I said the tithe is not an issue to me. People can give it or not. I generally give a tithe of money. And I use no law-like support to teach it. I just teach to give.

You’re right that we don’t do tithing the same. Pastors have adjusted it. One tenth of your food is not the same value as one tenth of your income. Most people spend about one tenth of their income on food. So one tenth of their food would be one hundredth of their income.

I think I may be about to figure out why you don’t teach what the tithe really was in the OT.

Food or money is not an issue because I plainly told you that I do not use the OT to teach it in any way.

Now, when you finally get my point, let me know.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Our day uses MONEY and we do not barter in our society like they did. You're missing the forest for the trees.

Akshuwally, they DID use money back then. They just didn't pay tithes with money, it was strictly agricultural products. And the reason was because the tithe was intended to be food (and drink), not cash.