House church or excuse?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

It's spiritual.

Isaiah 66:5-8 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed. (6) A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies. (7) Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. (8) Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

In other words, Zion no sooner got the point where there should have been in travail than she already gave birth.

The curse-free birth is salvation the day of the cross.

i will agree that there is a reflection in this, but it sure strikes me as overstretching "women may be saved in childbirth" to the breaking point. And again, that is not the only example, anyway.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Esaias, in my opinion your commentary about Matt 18 did great until you got to the verse in question. Jesus is merely saying that if two or three do something IN HIS NAME, it's like Him personally being there. he is represented as being there in those two or three. It's not saying He is present Himself, since that is redundant. He is everywhere anyway, and He indwells us all anyway as well. But the reason that which is bound or loosed in earth is also so in heaven is because those in earth who do this in his name are AS GOOD AS HIMSELF being there and having done it. Its is not saying two or three can gather and He will bless us with His presence. For that matter, we can be alone and He is with us!

It is speaking in terms of proxy, He is in our midst by proxy if we do this in His way and in His name.

Paul said the same thing!

1 Corinthians 5:3-5 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, (4) In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, (5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The power of Jesus is His authority, and that is what it means to do things in His name. It's putting us in the place of Jesus by proxy. We're doing this in His authority, and not our own.

When a policeman commands somebody to do something in the name of the Law, the law is not physically there except in the person of that officer. That is what Jesus mean by two or three gathering in His name and Him being present. By proxy.

I wasn'tsaying Christ is only present if two or three are gathered together. I was speaking of the role and authority of the ekklesia, which is Christ's authority, which is in force in ecclesial matters when the church comes together for Kingdom business. One believer cannot exercise the authority given to the Body. That would be popery. So the believerS must gather as his Body to transact any official business, and the minimum number is two or three.

I believe the context shows Jesus was speaking directly to the concept of the minyan and the required quorum under Jewish tradition to "bind and loose". The ekklesia is not subject to the halacha of the rabbis. Ten are not necessary. Two or three is sufficient.

And this necessarily determines the minimum number for an ekklesia to exist.

Otherwise, what is the number? One? Twenty?

[votivesoul]

Since the principle in Matthew 18 is church discipline, the two or three gathered together makes me think of the "out of the mouth of two or three witnesses let every word be established", which, as a principle, is always used in both the OT and NT as the standard for rendering accurate judgment as it pertains to punishment (even execution in the OT).

So when two or three witnesses all agree that the person guilty of sin needs punishment, the Lord is present with them and bears witness to their testimony, and so, binds in heaven what the church does on earth.

I will read the passage again, since right now, I'm just posting off the top of my head.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I wasn'tsaying Christ is only present if two or three are gathered together. I was speaking of the role and authority of the ekklesia, which is Christ's authority, which is in force in ecclesial matters when the church comes together for Kingdom business. One believer cannot exercise the authority given to the Body. That would be popery. So the believerS must gather as his Body to transact any official business, and the minimum number is two or three.

I believe the context shows Jesus was speaking directly to the concept of the minyan and the required quorum under Jewish tradition to "bind and loose". The ekklesia is not subject to the halacha of the rabbis. Ten are not necessary. Two or three is sufficient.

And this necessarily determines the minimum number for an ekklesia to exist.

Otherwise, what is the number? One? Twenty?

Okay. Thanks. Thought you meant Jesus is not there in proxy.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Oh oh. Something I noticed. . . I heard this same line many times but it's actually wrong.
Check it out. Jesus was not saying how many make a gathering. He was summarizing the explanation of two or three going to confront someone and judging them as repentant, or a heathen who is impenitent, being as good as himself judging the matter. He is personally represented adequately by the two or three who follow his directives in dealing with a spiritual dissident. That verse is one if the most commonly misapplied of them all. And wadr your explanation is the common mistake.

Oh oh. You failed to answer the actual question. Regardless as to how one wishes to interpret Matthew 18:20, you have not provided any text specifically stating exactly how many believers it takes to establish a gathering.

Please illustrate with "scripture" exactly how many believers it takes to establish a NT gathering?

But... let me say something about Matthew 18:20. If Christ is present when two or three are going to be confrontational with another over some sin or problem... why would He not be present when that same two or three gather for worship???

Why would Jesus not be present when that same two or three gather for worship???

And again,

Where does it state that this "assembly" must meet in a special building?

Please don't offer a polemic full of pontification, extrapolation of opinion, etc.. Please just provide some solid Scripture to consider.

Thanks,

Chris

P.S.

To simplify:

Can you illustrate with "scripture" exactly how many believers it takes to establish a NT gathering?

Using Scripture can you illustrate why Jesus would not be present when that same two or three gather for worship?

Where does NT Scripture state that this "assembly" must meet in a special building?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Jesus was discussing disciplinary matters relating to the church. Specifically, the case of someone who had done wrong, but refused to listen to anyone about it. In that case, it should be taken 'unto the church'. And, if the person refuses to hear the church, he was to be put out. This decision of the church would be ratified in heaven. 'Binding and loosing' was a common rabbinical term, well known among Jews, referring to the decisions of rabbis in regard to halacha (rules). Jesus was saying the decisions of the ekklesia would be Divinely authorized, seeing as the church was to be a theocratic assembly led by the Spirit of God, functioning in the authority of Jesus Christ.

He repeated this in saying that if 'two of you agree as touching anything' it would be done by the Father. That is, if two believers in the church come to an agreement, in regards to a petition to God (the context here is in reference to disciplinary matters, apparently, having to do with tresspasses that may be either forgiven or decided to be brought before the church), God would respect and ratify that decision. (This of course assumes the believers are operating in the Spirit and are not in the flesh, in rebellion against God.)

He then closes by saying 'for wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst.' The reason why the decisions of the church are validated by God (when done in accordance with the Divine will) is because 'wherever two or three are gathered together' Christ is in the midst, as King and Head of the Body.

This is a plain statement that wherever two or three believers are gathered together in the name (authority) of Christ, He is present. Not merely as an observer, but as a participant. We see this in Paul's letter to the Corinthians, where he says the following:

1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

If the power (authority) of the church is present wherever two or three are gathered together in the name (authority) of Christ, then it follows that two or three is the minimum number of believers necessary to constitute an ekklesia. An ekklesia that cannot carry out the functions of an ekklesia is not an ekklesia. An ekklesia that CAN carry out the functions of an ekklesia is an ekklesia.

The Jews had a rule that a minyan (ten adult males) was required to constitute a synagogue. They got this from statements in the Law regarding 'captains over tens', ten being the smallest number mentioned of a grouping of Israelites for official military purposes. However, the requirement for a minyan to constitute a synagogue was not Divinely specified. It was a later rabbinical development. The church nowhere and in no place adopted that rule of the synagogue. In fact, to do so would go counter to the church's doctrine. The church was an ekklesia, a called out gathering. The members were called out of society by God Himself, therefore the numbers necessary to constitute an ekklesia would be determined by God and not man.

Man cannot know exactly how many people in a given locality were to be called into the ekklesia. Therefore, the only rational approach would be that two would be the absolute bare minimum. One would not suffice, for one person is a member of a larger Body, and not the Body itself. The Body requires more than one member. Two is the minimum that is more than one.

Furthermore, Jesus Himself, in the passage we are examining, specified two or three as being sufficient for Him to be present. If you have two or three, plus the Head, you have the minimum number for an assembly of called out ones capable of functioning as the church.

There is no Bible verse that specifies any other number as being required to constitute a church. So the originally quoted reference is not being taken 'out of context', but is in fact being understood in context. The context being 'the ekklesia', which is not a mere social gathering of people who believe the same things, but rather is a governmental unit of the Kingdom of God called out of society to be gathered together to deliberate and rule on Kingdom matters.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Esaias, in my opinion your commentary about Matt 18 did great until you got to the verse in question. Jesus is merely saying that if two or three do something IN HIS NAME, it's like Him personally being there. he is represented as being there in those two or three.

Not so. I notice that you didn't quote the text. Let's look at the text:

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Jesus didn't say, "it is like I am there in the midst of them". Jesus said, "there I am in the midst of them".

Sorry, I feel the Scriptures refute your notion of representative presence. Jesus is truly there to participate in the actions performed.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Not so. I notice that you didn't quote the text. Let's look at the text:

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Jesus didn't say, "it is like I am there in the midst of them". Jesus said, "there I am in the midst of them".

Sorry, I feel the Scriptures refute your notion of representative presence. Jesus is truly there to participate in the actions performed.

I studied this out in depth, and that doesn't mean I must be right, though. But I once agreed with you, but saw context refuting it. He is there in proxy. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. As I said, it would be redundant to say he actually is there in very presence, since the is everywhere and is with any given single believer, anyway.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Note the "For" in Matthew 18:20. It is gar in Greek and is a preposition indicating causation, and can be and sometimes is translated "because". So, reading Matthew 18:20 as "Because where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them" makes one realize that Matthew 18:20 is a conclusion on all the material that came before, and the material that came before is about church discipline, not a worship based communual meeting.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/18-20.htm

http://biblehub.com/greek/1063.htm

HELPS Word-studies
1063 gár (a conjunction) – for. While "for" is usually the best translation of 1063 (gár), its sense is shaped by the preceding statement – the "A" statement which precedes the 1063 (gár) statement in the "A-B" unit.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
a contr. of ge ara (verily then)
Definition
for, indeed (a conjunc. used to express cause, explanation, inference or continuation)

So it's pretty clear Matthew 18:20 doesn't have anything to do with the saints getting together to praise the Lord and edify each other. Consider the following parable, which is all about forgiveness and reconciliation, and what happens when a brother doesn't forgive a brother. It's a reinforcement of the principle regarding church discipline.

There isn't any one Scripture that says how many it takes to qualify a meeting of the church. It could be two or three, it could be something else. But the Bible is silent on the matter, and Matthew 18:20 doesn't offer any additional insights, since it's not what the verse, or even passage, or even entire chapter, is about.

[good samaritan]

What if two are three gathered in the name, but their intents where not what Jesus would have?

If I am sent as an ambassador to another country in the name of my king, I have the king's support to carry out his mission (his will). If I get off course (out of his will) than I would not be in the name of my king. I think this illustrates the authority given to the church when we are doing the will of God particularly in these verses regarding church discipline.

If you have been born again you are the church, and no number makes you the church. In order for their to be an assembling that would mean for the church to gather. It doesn't matter the building structure as long as it is in the will of God what you are doing. God is not the author of confusion.