Everybody must have a pastor?

[good samaritan]

We think it means weekly sermons or teaching Bible studies. Nope. Experience is the best teacher, not listening to a lecture. The five grace gifts, pastors included, are given by the Lord to the church, to do what? EQUIP the saints so they can themselves learn how to minister and edify the Body. Modern pastors usually don't, and often, can't do that (more on the can't later).

Sitting someone (or a bunch of someones) down and telling them a bunch of Bible facts can be interesting. Things can be learned, intellectually speaking. Sure, that's a given, but only in much the same way sitting in a math or health class. Until the student is at the board or in the gym, all the theoretical learning doesn't accomplish much.

The saints need to be shown (not just told) how to live for God effectively. They need to be the ones doing the majority of the ministering. Maybe I know how to effectively prepare a sermon or pray with someone to receive the Holy Spirit. Great! But am I showing anyone how? Who am I teaching these skills to? Unless and until I as the pastor/minister/leader/etc. get out of the way, no one I am disciplining will ever grow.

Jesus said "I have meat to eat you know not of...My meat is to do the will of the Father..."

That's how sheep ought to be feed. Let them put their own hands on their own life, their own calling, their own ministry, and get to work. Sitting down for several hours a week while someone else does all the "feeding" so-called, doesn't allow for that.

There needs to be a paradigm shift. Consider your own assembly. How many people are effectively serving in the five gifts of grace? How many, even after years, continue to go to the "pastor" for everything? How many "pastors" are worn out, not spending enough time with their families, stressed about all the "sheep under their care", worried about how they can reach their community better, wondering if a new program is going to be successful, hoping enough money comes in this month to pay the bills, and etc.?

Friends, that's not pastoring. That's management. You're in the wrong line of work (lol)!

A pastor is called to the following: tend to God's people with loving, nurturing care while sharing the "sincere milk of the Word". This, more than a sermon, more than Bible study, more than a vision service, more than a building fund, more than a marriage counseling session, more than just about every single thing a modern day "pastor" does, looks like this:

Open you home to the saints. Cook them a meal. Befriend them in your living room. Insist they call you and your wife by your first names. Let them do most of the talking (i.e LISTEN INSTEAD OF PREACH), let their kids play with your kids, show them what a Godly marriage looks like, let them see the joy and bounty of God upon your life, discuss the Word together and openly without dominating the discussion, pray with and not for them, worship with them instead of directly them how to, and etc.

But you might say: that's just fellowship between saints!

Exactly! If the Lord has called you to be a pastor (or anything else), the grace He has given you for such a gifting will manifest everywhere. You won't have to do-do-do-do for the church just to keep the doors open. It will become evident in your loving concern and good treatment of the folks you have over that you are a (not their) pastor. When it comes time for them to listen, they will, but not because you're "the pastor" and that's just what sheep do. But because they know you love them like their Chief Shepherd does, and would lay down your life for them, even if something you might have to say will be difficult for them to hear. They will joyfully yield (as opposed to submit; see the Greek word for submit) because they will see how much you, as a friend and fellow saint, are passionate about THEIR well being.

And I assure you, the saints will appreciate it and you a whole lot more. You won't be so burnt out, so desperate to get a "Word" from the Lord for next Sunday's sermon (Lord, what if there are are visitors?!), so removed from your wife and kids because duty calls (late night board meetings, or whatever), and etc.

You can actually get down to the business of nurturing God's flock the way you were intended.

I've lived this life, the very one I just described, for the better part of 10 years. It works. It really does. And if you're a pastor, and what I've written speaks to your heart, seek the Lord and find our for yourself.

Beautifully put.

I would add that all will not allow you to pastor them. They will shut you out. In most every church, each pastor has a circle of people who the pastor is as involved as you explained. (People who he breaks bread with, who he prays with, who talks the word with, etc...) The problem is that churches are not all made up of all those receptive people. Churches have a spectrum of people and many are not as easy to love as the people you have mentioned. As a shepherd a person has to allow for those hard to deal people as well.

This thread seems very dogmatic to a lot of people who pour their hearts into other people and most do it not for any gain of their own except for the joy of service to God and others. I think we can spend a lot of time trying to define the terms five fold. I think our motivations are usually more important than our methods. I really don't care if people feel there should be a plurality of pastors or just one so long as they are fulfilling the will of God in their lives.

I don't think that scriptures gives specific details on the exact numbers required per assembly nor does it have an exact job description for each calling. Again as has been said all the five fold ministries are necessary and so we must have them including a pastor. Whether you feel that is needful to be plural or singular is for each to decide.

I personally have been a part of churches with a singular pastor who didn't restrict the church people from operating in their callings. I am sure there are people who came from the same church who would give a different story. Sometimes blending people isn't easy and it may even fail for some, but we must remember that God uses our failures as well.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Can you describe this in a bit more detail? Give some examples, etc?

I've never held the title "pastor". I've never desired it. I've not "desired the office of a bishop". But, by the grace of God, I have been given the ability to love people, to prefer the brethren, and lay down my life for them.

What my wife and I have done over the years is, we invite people over. My wife makes some organic, home-made chicken noodle soup from her own bone broth, and we sit with our friends at the table and break bread together. We talk, we listen, we share, we laugh, we encourage. Sometimes, we pray together. We don't always pull out the Bible, even though we talk about the Word and what's in it. I get asked a lot of questions. I try to give sound, Biblical answers.

I've never once given anyone an order to do anything. I make suggestions based on circumstances (rarely) or share my own experiences, if I think I can relate. We're transparent. My wife usually minds the kids if the nature of the fellowship turns ministerial. Otherwise, my kids sit on my lap, and I hold them with one hand, even as I hold my Bible with the other.

I let people stay as long as they want (I purposefully try to schedule these get-togethers when I have the next day off of work). Sometimes I have several people over. Someone just one, or maybe a couple, with their kids.

Sometimes I meet someone at Culver's or Panera, and do much the same thing, except less freely because it's a public place.

By the end of the night, I'm usually giving someone a book to read, or recommending a place in the Bible to study out, just for homework, a.k.a. fun.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

I've taught and preached from a pulpit. I've done the lecture format Bible study (more times than I can remember). It just doesn't meet the Lord's criteria for how fellowship should take place. Imagine the Body being one big mouth while everyone else is a bunch of little ears, called to passively spectate while someone else does all the ministering.

I don't care to hear my own voice. I want to hear what God is doing in the lives of others. As much as I want to speak God's words, I'm equally and often more interested in hearing God speak through my brothers and sisters.

Case in point:

I recently ran into an old friend who I had not seen in a few years. We chatted for awhile. He gave me his phone number. I called him the next day and offered to get together, his family and mine. I was willing to have them over to our place, but we were invited there instead. So we went.

We caught up on old times, shared new times, and ate together. I'm not, or ever was their "pastor". But these people have been hurt, mistreated, even abused, and there is and was that recent night a world-weariness to them. They are still smarting. I listened way more than talked. People who are hurt need a good listener. They need to vent their feelings, get things off of their chest.

Everything ended well. They were on the verge of considering some big changes. I didn't tell them what to do, or even give an opinion. I didn't try to "pastor" them, in the modern sense of the word, even though I was actively tending to them like a shepherd would.

Their kids played with mine. We will get together again. No strings attached, no pressure given. But guess what? They trust me and my wife. They know I love them and care about them and have their best interests in mind. Several years ago they came to me and said "If anything should ever happen to us, we would like you to raise our children". They knew that at the time, no one else who so "naturally care[d] for [their] state" (Philippians 2:20).

I was surprised, but then they said it was because I was the one praying with two of their kids when they received the Holy Spirit, and for them, that sealed the deal regarding my character and commitment to them as a family.

What am I saying? Unfortunately, without trying to be anything but a friend, I've been more of a pastor to them then any of the literal "pastors" they've had over the course of 20 some years. And yet, guess what? They don't think of me in those terms, because I don't carry the title, and never did all the so-called pastorly things a "pastor" is supposed to do in order to be a pastor.

I simply cared for them and love/d them as I love myself.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Beautifully put.

Thank you.

I would add that all will not allow you to pastor them. They will shut you out. In most every church, each pastor has a circle of people who the pastor is as involved as you explained. (People who he breaks bread with, who he prays with, who talks the word with, etc...) The problem is that churches are not all made up of all those receptive people. Churches have a spectrum of people and many are not as easy to love as the people you have mentioned. As a shepherd a person has to allow for those hard to deal people as well.

I'm not trying to take away from your other comments, but this part really jumped out at me and I wanted to address it, to give you and other readers a different perspective.

In psychology there is such a thing as power differential. It speaks to the different levels of power, perceived or real, that exists between people. This can exist in a home between a husband and wife, between an older and younger sibling, between cousins, and etc. It certainly exists in the schoolyard, and in the office (or any other job).

When someone appears to hold power, there are those who become very shy, even scared. They may have been bullied or abused in someway by someone who was able to take power over them.

They come into the church, and they see a man called "the pastor". He holds the microphone and is undoubtedly, visibly in charge. Nothing there really happens (if we're honest) without his approval.

Immediately, the person in question has a hard time. Even if the "pastor" is kind-hearted, friendly, and non-domineering. Why? Was it something the "pastor" did or said? Probably not, and yet, still, yes, it is.

What is it? It's his inability to recognize and discern that the person in question is going to be at psychological loggerheards with him from the word "go" because of their past.

So, instead of coming up as just another friendly face, he comes up to them or is introduced to them as "the pastor". He's got a nice suit on. He's going to preach the Word and you better listen because ALMIGHTY GOD IS NOW SPEAKING (through the pastor, allegedly).

Even if the person in question responds to the Lord and God saves him or her, he or she will never respond well to the "pastor" and his ministry, or his efforts to "pastor" him or her.

People are terribly fragile. We can't begin to guess at the baggage some are bringing to the church with them. Imagine a sixteen year old girl coming to church with some friends from the youth group for the first time, and the "pastor" kind of looks like her dad, who sexually abused her. Is it the pastor's fault? No, he can't help what he looks like, not really, at least, or how he's perceived in the mind of a damaged girl.

But what if when she came to the meeting, it wasn't apparent to anyone who the "pastor" was? What if, like when the soldiers came to arrest Jesus, they didn't even know they were talking with him, i.e. the pastor (made Himself of no reputation, right?)?

Imagine a meeting where the only tangible sense of power and authority was in the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ as Lord?

Jesus would know exactly how to minister to such a girl, without causing any traumatic feelings (a broken reed will He not break...).

And the list goes on.

The "hard to pastor" people are not likely so obstinate and difficult as many make them out to be. They are more likely mis-understood. How can I tell?

Because they make great friends with other saints, and easily receive the ministry of others who don't carry the title "pastor". If they really were so stubborn and hard-hearted, they wouldn't be able to befriend anyone, and no one would be able to reach them, and their time in the church would be woefully short, as God Himself, recognizing their wickedness, pruned them for being unfruitful.

If anyone is interested, I recommend reading the following, very short article. It covers much of what I've just written.

http://www.gloriouschurch.com/pdf/Le...o-a-Pastor.pdf

[KeptByTheWord]

Votive... would to God there were more men out there with a heart like yours. I know they are out there, perhaps I just haven't met them... but sharing the compassion and love that you have with those whom you meet... is just what the Lord is calling men to do and be for people. May God raise up many more men who are willing to be bread and wine poured out to those hurting and hungry!

[KeptByTheWord]

I know there are others here who are doing what they can for kingdom of the Lord.. mentioning names is a bit dangerous - hoping I don't forget anyone... but Bro. Blume.. Bro. EB.... Bro. Esaias, Bro. GS... Bro. MTD ... Bro. Originalist... and I'm sure there are more... don't be afraid to be the bread and wine poured out to the people... I believe the Lord is raising up more hearts like yours to minister to the communities around you. Praying for all of you, and any I may have missed!

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Votive... would to God there were more men out there with a heart like yours. I know they are out there, perhaps I just haven't met them... but sharing the compassion and love that you have with those whom you meet... is just what the Lord is calling men to do and be for people. May God raise up many more men who are willing to be bread and wine poured out to those hurting and hungry!

amen!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Brother Blume do you have a teaching on line of you teaching on ministerial authority?

No I don't.

[mfblume]

The key I have tried stressing over and over again is there is a principle of leadership and guidance of people toward people. And the key point is the authority of God in the person is being recognized not the person. Again, God in a 12 year old ought to be heeded by a world renowned evangelist, when God speaks through such a child. A leader in the kingdom will move people to do more for the Lord and not for the minister.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Elisha's school of the prophets:

We all may prophesy one by one, correct? We should all covet to prophesy, correct? If there is any typology in the New Covenant for the School of the Prophets in the Old Testament, it would be coming together as a Body and more successfully learning how to operate in the Gifts of the Spirit, under the leading of the Holy Spirit as the Head of the Church gives the unction to use someone.

I don't see anything in Elisha that would make me think of a New Covenant pastor being in charge of a bunch of people. Instead, I see in Elisha and his school Jesus taking us as His students and learning from Him how to correctly manifest and operate His gifts.

That's not my point. It's not being in charge of anyone except in mentorship. Every person needs another person to mentor them, for lack of a better word. Lording over God's people is for the Lord alone, not and human being except Christ.

This really comes to the forefront when we see the Apostles follow the Lord and then people continue in the apostles' doctrine. And the twelve apostles sit on twelve thrones spiritually speaking ruling the Israel of God which is the Church under their doctrine. No one will assume that status in the church except hose twelve, but ther eis the principle of men leading men in mentorship.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Regarding the relationship of Moses to Joshua, Elijah and Elisha, and etc., I submit the following two points for consideration:

1.) We are not in the same covenant.

The promises are different. The priesthood is different. The way the covenant works is different. The mediator of the covenant is different. The experiences are different. The kingdom is different. The rituals are different. The laws are different. The expected conduct is different. The ethnic groups are different. Salvation is different. The stories are different. The way God operates is different.

The idea that any New Covenant individual should, to one man, that is, a pastor, do for him as Joshua did for Moses, and etc., isn't the testimony of New Covenant teachings (and Old Covenant Messianic Prophecies).

Any picture can be taken incorrectly, In the examples I was showing, the issue is simply mentorship. Spiritual authority rests on people and passes down to people in any covenant. the principle in the old is the same in the new, although details and extents are different.

There is no way that any of us can be for a pastor what Joshua was for Moses, Elisha for Elijah, and etc. They made themselves slaves to these individual men. We are not slaves to a pastor. And there is no way a pastor can be for a man what Moses was for Joshua, or Elijah was for Elisha. And on down the list it goes, wherever we see that one to one relationship in the Old Testament.

At some point it has to be admitted, the comparisons very quickly breakdown, which leads to:

2.) Those Old Covenant relationships do serve as a typology, but not as a typology between a New Covenant pastor and a sheep, but rather, as a typology of Christ and a saint.

Not always.

Elijah led Elisha and Elijah was taken into heaven to leave Elisha doing more than he did - a double portion. Jesus ascended and said we would do greater things than He, and I believe that meant in NUMBER. Elijah did 8 miracles and Elisha did 16.

The same horses and chariots of fire that took Elijah up were all around Elisha on earth later on. The same power that raised and enthroned Jesus is toward us in this earth!

So, Elisha speaks of the church and Elijah is the Lord.

And Elisha likewise had many following him who were the students of the prophets.

All those Old Covenant men (Moses, Elijah, etc.) were hand-selected by God, and had His Spirit put upon them with power. They represent the Christ-type. Additionally, their servants (Joshua, Elisha) were handpicked by God, too. They also had God's Spirit put upon them with power. This is the saint-type.

But note: They acted as replacements of and for their masters, i.e. they assumed the Christ-type, when the time came. Joshua replaced Moses when Moses died. Elisha replaced Elijah when he died. They transitioned between types.

Yes, and similarly, Jesus left and gave us his mantle.

If Moses, et al, are merely representative of a New Covenant "pastor", he, the pastor is fulfilling the Christ-type. But guess what? Since Christ has come, no more Old Covenant types are needed. The real deal has arrived, and no one but the entire Body of Christ can be His type, on earth (1 John 4:17).

It's not a type for saints to be mentored as the sons of the prophets were by Elisha after Elijah left. We see the identical thing in the church.

Additionally, since many saints in today's world, and in times past, have all their life been "under a pastor", they never once get to transition into the Christ-type, the way Joshua, et al, did, EVEN THOUGH THE SPIRIT OF GOD HAS COME UPON THEM WITH POWER.

No type is perfect. But I am not talking about types here. I am speaking about a principle of leadership and mentoring. Not lording over anyone.

This is where the common model breaks down. Are there pastors in the church? Yes, as much as any of the other gifts of grace according to Ephesians 4:11. But does that mean that a pastor has authority over anyone or even in the church?

Where are the words pastor/s and power/authority linked in the New Covenant teachings (Note that 1 Timothy 5:17 doesn't count since the Greek word for "rule" is proestōtes, which means "to take the lead")?

Authority (usually power in the KJV) is always only linked to Jesus and the Apostles (Paul makes reference to his authority in the Gospel).

Bishops and elders are called to be leaders, to stand out in front as examples--as they model their life correctly, their life (more than their words or what they teach) preaches a message to the saints. A pastor/shepherd is called to do what? Feed God's sheep. But how?

We think it means weekly sermons or teaching Bible studies. Nope. Experience is the best teacher, not listening to a lecture.

The word is the greatest form of pastoral ministry and Paul told Timothy to preach the word. The word is above the name of Jesus. And the issue, I think that stands out is the word can be in many forms, but it is still the word. NOTHING supercedes the anointed spoke word.

The five grace gifts, pastors included, are given by the Lord to the church, to do what? EQUIP the saints so they can themselves learn how to minister and edify the Body. Modern pastors usually don't, and often, can't do that, especially when someone in the assembly isn't called a to pastoral calling, but rather, to be an evangelist or prophet, or etc. Pastors train pastors, prophets train prophets, etc.

I agree to an extent. But pastors are not meant to only train pastors. Shepherds do not shepherd shepherds. They shepherd sheep. And we are all of the fold. In that a sense everyone needs a pastor. I think we can graduate form that, though. Everyone can pastor to a degree just as Timothy could fulfil the office of an evangelist without primarily being called to be an evangelist.

Sitting someone (or a bunch of someones) down and telling them a bunch of Bible facts can be interesting. Things can be learned, intellectually speaking. Sure, that's a given, but only in much the same way sitting in a math or health class. Until the student is at the board or in the gym, all the theoretical learning doesn't accomplish much.

Sitting and intellectually learning from someone is not necessarily sitting beneath a pastor. God speaks in a living manner, putting words into the heart of the minister that apply directly to who is there. This isn't about quarterlies being dictated to a people, but a man of God hear form the Lord for what He wants spoke, and saying things that he simply does not know even directly apply to any particular situation, while the people are hit between the eyes. That's what I call pastoring. And teaching people to operate in their gifts and showing them how it's done. Of course, that applies to work outside the pulpit in one on one and one with family as well. But it's way beyond intellectual transference of information, to say the least!

The saints need to be shown (not just told) how to live for God effectively. They need to be the ones doing the majority of the ministering. Maybe I know how to effectively prepare a sermon or pray with someone to receive the Holy Spirit. Great! But am I showing anyone how? Who am I teaching these skills to? Unless and until I as the pastor/minister/leader/etc. get out of the way, no one I am disciplining will ever grow.

Of course. What you described in that "pastoring" is not really pastoring a congregation. We need top move in the Spirit, teach people how to operate in the gifts , and make time and room for it in a meeting, as well as other gatherings. There's so much to it.

Jesus said "I have meat to eat you know not of...My meat is to do the will of the Father..."

That's how sheep ought to be fed, by actually and literally doing the will of the Father! Let them put their own hands on their own life, their own calling, their own ministry, and get to work. Sitting down for several hours a week while someone else does all the "feeding" so-called, doesn't allow for that.

The gatherings each week are necessary. The early church did it. There must be that spoken word. It created the worlds! And to create worlds of ministries in the church, the messages are things to actually be lived out, and reminded to the people later for them to practice. This causes the people to come to you and say the truths are changing the way they live in everyday life. It's not information, but life directions. People actually handle life differently as a result, or what they heard was really not worth hearing.

My burden is to see people grow in their own gifts by helping them discover them, practice them, and learn to handle life by self denial and really taking up their crosses. Seeing their characters change and watching them grow and get victory over personal glitches and quirks.

There needs to be a paradigm shift. Consider your own assembly. How many people are effectively serving in the five gifts of grace? How many, even after years, continue to go to the "pastor" for everything? How many "pastors" are worn out, not spending enough time with their families, stressed about all the "sheep under their care", worried about how they can reach their community better, wondering if a new program is going to be successful, hoping enough money comes in this month to pay the bills, and etc.?

Friends, that's not pastoring. That's management. You're in the wrong line of work (lol)!

A pastor is called to the following: tend to God's people with loving, nurturing care while sharing the "sincere milk of the Word". This, more than a sermon, more than Bible study, more than a vision service, more than a building fund, more than a marriage counseling session, more than just about every single thing a modern day "pastor" does, looks like this:

I describe a pastor as someone who teaches the people to overcome their weaknesses by teaching them who they are in Christ enough to see them apply that and make changes in how they react to life. The messages God gives me to give to them all focus on how we can live greater and more victorious lives. It is basically spiritual maturity. Teaching them to cast out devils and heal the sick is one thing, and necessary, but moreso is the need to lead them to carry their crosses and in everyday simple situations in life, at home and at work, overcome their fleshly weaknesses of temper, fear and hatred, and begin to see God live through them in the world where it counts.

Basically, teaching them how to let God live through them as per Gal 2:20 is the work of church meetings. I would say that is ultimate in a church meeting setting! But there's so much more outside the church.

Gal 2:20 KJV I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.