Billy Graham

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Bro, but God is going to save Billy for what???? That's all I'm asking, but you seem not to be providing that, you just want us to fawn over your posts like what you are blowing is glowing.

That's a fair question.

I'll answer by starting with a question.

Why is God going to save anyone at all???

None of us deserve it. In fact, we all deserve Hell. Now, why would God save Billy Graham, seeing that He didn't know and/or obey the Apostolic Gospel??? For the same reason that God would choose to save anyone... for the sake of His glory, and to have compassion on one who believed (assuming that Billy's faith was genuine). When God shows mercy on anyone, it brings Him glory. God doesn't rejoice in the destruction of the wicked. And the salvation of mankind through God's elect is His revealed desire. Every time God has His way, this gives Him glory. Every time God doesn't get His desire... it gives the enemy glory.

For nearly 1,800 years, there is no recorded history of any church holding to exactly what we believe. Now, unless God chose to have a sovereign mercy upon those Christians whose hearts were truly sincere and searching, every human being who professed faith in Jesus during that 1,800 year period was lost. If the Gospel's purpose is to provide salvation for mankind, this would imply that it has been an ABYSMAL failure. It would also demonstrate that Satan's efforts to bring the official church into apostasy not only worked... but by doing so Satan successfully alienated the majority of mankind from God through... His own church. As a result, Jehovah would be the only God that... failed. I don't buy that. I can't buy that. God is large and in charge. And no matter what deception might fly, God is sovereign. And it is God's mercy that makes the rule. For example, if a man is guilty of some grave sin and God forgives... does that do away with the commandment? NO. If Satan drags the institutional church into apostasy in a Hellish effort with doctrines of devils to use the very Christianity faith intended to save to alienate man from God and drag man to Hell... and God has a sovereign mercy on those sincere souls... does that negate the truth? NO. It simply demonstrates that God is sovereign and that God will NOT play second fiddle, allowing Satan to hijack His own church in its entirety. And in this... God would be glorified.

Mercy will always triumph over judgment as it pertains to God's elect. And any man's salvation on account of God's sovereign mercy... is God's triumph.

Really? So, you are saying that really they aren't. Because for some UNKNOWN reason they taught religious mythology and because they did good works God judged them righteous. 3-Stepper Sovereign God? Actually I got one better, no stepper, because after you got all these people to follow your formula, they still aren't saved. Because there isn't actually a salvation, they never know they are saved. You probably keep reminding them they that are continually sinners, that "blessed assurance" is not so sure? Chris, think about it. If John Calvin, Martin Luther, Pope John Paul the 2nd are in the hands of God as being saved, then why is doctrine important? Why did Paul rebuke the Churches of the Roman Asia Minor? Ones who were of Paul, ones who were of Cephas, ones who were of Apollos, and ones who were of Christ? Why all the warnings? Why was Paul fighting against those who would add to the word of God. Peter telling the churches that somethings Brother Paul had written in his epistles were hard to understand. Yet, UNLEARNED men twisted them to their OWN damnation? Peter didn't say may their souls rest in God's hands. The New Testament is DEAD SILENT on your "They're in God's Hands" doctrine. Not a peep from Jesus, or the Apostles. Not a peep bro, not a peep.

Please note, even in the churches rebuked by Paul over their sectarian practices and various additions to the Gospel... Paul still identified them all as "the church", "the saints", and "brethren". Paul rebuked them... but Paul didn't disown them.

When the disciples came to Jesus about the man casting out devils who "followeth not us", Jesus explained something interesting:

Luke 9:49-50 King James Version (KJV)
49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

In our sin (the sectarian attitude that Paul was rebuking) we forbid all who are not a part of the Apostolic Movement. Those who are doing a work for Christ and followeth not us are rebuked and condemned...we're so like the disciples sometimes. However, Christ's answer to them was, "Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us." Was Billy Graham against us? I don't know of any encounter in which Billy Graham took a stand against Pentecostals. And if he did at some point pitch himself against us, it must have been early on... because Graham became rather open to Christians of all traditions at about the midpoint of his ministry. Was Graham following us? Nope. But he was for us. How? He proliferated the name of Jesus as many other traditional Christians have done. That paves the way for us to share greater truth with those who at the very least have heard of Jesus through men like Billy Graham.

Jesus also said...

Matthew 10:41-42 King James Version (KJV)
41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

The rabbis have a similar saying: "He that gives food to one that studies in the law, God will bless him in this world, and give him a lot in the world to come.", (Syn. Sohar).

Anyone professing to know Christ and who does good in the name of being a disciple of Christ, will not lose their reward. Let us consider that Billy Graham is considered to be the most widely known and most widely appreciated evangelists in America, and perhaps even the world. Graham, even with imperfect understanding, advanced the knowledge of the name of Jesus, breaking up the soil for us who wish to plant the seeds of greater truth. Graham also had one of the greatest missionary organizations of charity on earth, The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association. Providing water, food, clothing, shelter, and medicine to countless numbers of people throughout the globe (many of which in Africa were no doubt Apostolic)... all in the name of... Jesus Christ.

Jesus Himself tells us that people like Graham are not only for us, but that they also will not lose their reward.

TO BE CONTINUED....

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Do that at a Billy Graham crusade and you get shown the door or invited to the police station. You ever seen Billy Graham pray through into a powerful baptism in the Holy Ghost with tears, snot, and tongues everywhere?

I admit, I never saw Billy Graham "pray through". However, am I to assume that he never did? What if he did at some point and I just wasn't there? Again, I'm not all knowing. And therefore, I am certainly not Billy Graham's judge.

To be fair... I've never witnessed anyone on this forum, or any other Apostolic forum, "pray through" either.

So, if such experiences are "more Spirit", and it's the remedy of the day, how come Billy never took his medicine?

Again, I can't say if Billy Graham ever "prayed through" or not. And again, that's why I decline from casting a judgment.

[Amanah]

The gospel is so simple a child can get it.

On the day of Pentecost, they repented, where baptized in Jesus' name, and were filled with the HG, evidenced by speaking in tongues. (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Acts 10:46-48)

These are foundational truths, and without the basic foundation, it is impossible to build any further (Hebrews 6)

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

The gospel is so simple a child can get it.

On the day of Pentecost, they repented, where baptized in Jesus' name, and were filled with the HG, evidenced by speaking in tongues. (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Acts 10:46-48)

These are foundational truths, and without the basic foundation, it is impossible to build any further (Hebrews 6)

Actually, we haven't been very systematic in our theology. There are core doctrines of Scripture that are of great soteriological relevance that we often ignore. For example the primary ones I'm aware of are:

1. Corporate Election (God's choice to save whosoever will enter into the body of Christ)

2. Predestination (God's predetermined glory for the church)

3. Atonement (Christ's work of satisfying the Law's condemnation for the church)

4. Propitiation (Christ's satisfying God's wrath against sin as it relates to the church)

5. Prevenient Grace (the Holy Spirit's drawing of the lost to Christ Jesus through both an inner and an outer calling)

6. Conversion (repentance & water baptism)

7. Justification (imputed righteousness received by faith at Conversion)

8. Regeneration (being born of the Spirit as a result of the baptism of the Holy Spirit)

9. Adoption (membership in God's family through the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit)

10. Sanctification (growing into Christlikeness by taking part in the divine nature through the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit)

11. Death (the cessation of physical life after which one enters the intermediate state wherein the soul is present with the Lord in Heaven awaiting resurrection & glorification)

12. Resurrection & Glorification (receiving a resurrected and glorified body fashioned perfectly after the image of Christ)

All too often we just get japlappy and cram everything into Acts 2:38 without any deeper study or reflective thought regarding the soteriological elements of what we are truly experiencing according to Scripture as it might relate to Acts 2:38.

As the Holy Spirit works to draw the sinner to salvation (Prevenient Grace), should the sinner repent of their sins and be water baptized, they experience "conversion". It is this experience that brings the individual to a state of "justification". Being "justified" (by faith) they stand before God as though they never sinned. And as a result, they are able to receive the Holy Spirit. Upon receiving the Holy Spirit they experience "regeneration" and partake in the divine nature, making them sons and daughters of God, the reality of "adoption". Then begins the process of "sanctification". And, I'll stop at sanctification, because the rest goes beyond this topic.

If a sinner has repented of their sins and has been water baptized, they are "justified" before God. Initial justification comes by faith upon repentance, nothing else. This is WHY people often receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost before water baptism. If water baptism justified anyone, it would be impossible to receive the Holy Spirit prior to water baptism. And so, we know that through repentance, one is justified before God. Water baptism, in the name of Jesus, is unto identification. Baptized in His name we are buried with Him in baptism. This allows us to "experience" the remission of sin that took place at repentance via cleansing the conscience before God.

That being said, should a repentant soul die prior to water baptism, or even immediately after water baptism, the argument can be made biblically that they died in a "justified" state.

Now, we can agree that they had yet to experience regeneration. But we cannot deny that they entered into justification.

[Amanah]

Hebrews 6
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.

***
I think the gospel is simplicity, we try to over complicate it. and Hebrews 6 tells us what the foundational beliefs are.

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. (2 Cor 11:3)

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Hebrews 6
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.

What do you believe that this means?

It certainly doesn't mean that we shouldn't study and bear out the spiritual deep and abiding realities of repentance, faith, water baptism, the ordination of elders, the resurrection, and eternal judgment.

What it means is, once these foundations are set... we are to go on unto perfection (sanctification).

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Aquila

What do you believe that this means?

It certainly doesn't mean that we shouldn't study and bear out the spiritual deep and abiding realities of repentance, faith, water baptism, the ordination of elders, the resurrection, and eternal judgment.

What it means is, once these foundations are set... we are to go on unto perfection (sanctification).

It means until you get the foundation right, you can't go any further.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

It means until you get the foundation right, you can't go any further.

No. It doesn't. lol

Paul's point is an admonition that once these realities are understood, we are to move forward into spiritual maturity and sanctification.

And my point here is... no one appears to be seeking to understand these interrelated spiritual realities. They rush through Acts 2:38 (condemn everyone who hasn't experienced it as we have instantly) and yet they don't even understand how conversion, justification, regeneration, and sanctification are related, nor how they even are received and experienced through Acts 2:38. And as a result, they do not even consider the state of those who have experienced a portion of Acts 2:38.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Aquila

No. It doesn't. lol

Paul's point is an admonition that once these realities are understood, we are to move forward into spiritual maturity and sanctification.

And my point here is... no one appears to be seeking to understand these interrelated spiritual realities. They rush through Acts 2:38 (condemn everyone who haven't experienced it as we have instantly) and yet they don't even understand how conversion, justification, regeneration, and sanctification are related, nor how they even are received and experienced through Acts 2:38.

Acts 26:24

. . . thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Aquila

What do you believe that this means?

It certainly doesn't mean that we shouldn't study and bear out the spiritual deep and abiding realities of repentance, faith, water baptism, the ordination of elders, the resurrection, and eternal judgment.

What it means is, once these foundations are set... we are to go on unto perfection (sanctification).

But it does mean what Amanah said it means, because it's tied back to chapter 5 where the readers are upbraided for still needing milk and in not being ready or able to become teachers, so the author had to mention the foundation that should have been already learned and disseminated in and among them, to scold them for being stuck in neutral at the starting line instead of far off racing for the finish line.

So, until one puts it into gear, they can't move forward. Just as Amanah said.