History of Tithes in the Church

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

It is no different then sabbath keeping and any other Old Testament teaching, we all have been guilty of picking how and which commands we are to keep in the New Testament church.

This makes no sense. Tithing is not at all "no different than sabbath keeping". Unless you mean the tithe teachers do to the tithe the same thing Sabbath breakers do to the Sabbath, like changing its meaning into something more convenient for them to justify their unscriptural behaviour.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Akshuwally, they DID use money back then. They just didn't pay tithes with money, it was strictly agricultural products. And the reason was because the tithe was intended to be food (and drink), not cash.

Amen. You see?

Mike Blume!

Just because they didn’t tithe money, you seem to think they didn’t have money waaay back then. They did.

A little Bible trivia for you. Did you know that the word money occurs more times in the book of Genesis, than in all the books of the New Testament combined?

So they definitely had money and they routinely used money before the tithe.

How did you think that millions of people (the Israelites) came up with the half shekel offering in the wilderness, if money was so uncommon? Money was so common that they actually used it when God ordered Moses to Number the people, (in Numbers)? Get it?

So, since they akshually (as Esaias put it) did have money and that’s a verifiable fact, why do you think they didn’t tithe money?

Do you know?

Do you?

Give up?

It’s because God told them what to tithe to Him, and He didn’t want their stinking money!!!!

That’s why.

Now that you know the truth, go teach your church the truth. And don’t hold anything back!

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Akshuwally, they DID use money back then. They just didn't pay tithes with money, it was strictly agricultural products. And the reason was because the tithe was intended to be food (and drink), not cash.

The OT tithe was not just any agriculture, but it was specifically connected to the land of Israel. We can’t even tithe agriculture outside of the land of Israel.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

This makes no sense. Tithing is not at all "no different than sabbath keeping". Unless you mean the tithe teachers do to the tithe the same thing Sabbath breakers do to the Sabbath, like changing its meaning into something more convenient for them to justify their unscriptural behaviour.

There is no Christian I KNOW that keeps the Sabbath by the way it is commanded by Moses.

You cannot bake any food, you cannot boil water, you cannot gather, and you cannot leave your dwellings on the Sabbath. Whether or not people call Saturday or Sunday the Sabbath, there is no person I know who keeps it as strictly as the Old Testament Commands.

That is the reason for my comparison. I am not Sabbath breaker, Jesus is my Sabbath.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I teach that people can give tithes and I don't use the Old Testament to prove it or support it. I just say that they gave tithes back then and you can do that today as well.

Brother Blume,

I’d like to draw your attention to the big red letters above. Do you see them?
Could you explain to me when ”back then” was?

Because I’m pretty sure “back then” is in the Old Covenant/OT that you say you don’t teach tithes from.

Originally Posted by mfblume

I don't go into anything about people being cursed if they don't do it like the law did. I don't go into anything about what exactly was tithes in the Old Testament

Brother, you don’t want them to tithe like the law! Under the law, tithing money was not allowed. And you should teach them what exactly tithing was under the law. Are you afraid that they will know the truth and the truth will make them free?

Originally Posted by mfblume

No, because I do not teach tithes from the OT.

Oh yeah! I think you said that. You just use it for an example. You don’t teach from it. I’ve got it. I think.

Originally Posted by mfblume

Get real and stop the mockery. What is it with you guys?

Who me?! I’s jus’ trying to understand! Don’t make fun of me!

Originally Posted by mfblume

Our day uses MONEY and we do not barter in our society like they did.

The tithing system was ordained by God. It wasn’t a barter system at all. He told them what to tithe. If He had wanted money, well, He could have just said so. Evidently He wanted food, even though money was readily available. It took thousands of years for preachers and churches to come up with the money idea.
Annnd they like it. Even though the “example” they teach from, or not, did not allow tithing money.

Originally Posted by mfblume

Now, when you finally get my point, let me know.

Okay brother, I think I finally get your point. How’d I do?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

The OT tithe was not just any agriculture, but it was specifically connected to the land of Israel. We can’t even tithe agriculture outside of the land of Israel.

Amen brother! I totally agree.

But isn’t it interesting that tithing agriculture from outside of the promised land was forbidden, but tithing money from outside the promised land is perfectly fine?

Why is that?

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Let me begin by saying that you have said a lot of things that are true in this post. I’m not bashing you, I am trying to teach you. You seem to be teachable which is a pretty uncommon characteristic among preachers.

I’m not bashing you, to be teachable which is a pretty uncommon characteristic among preachers. You are very flattering

Having said that tithing doctrine has been changing at least since the crucifixion of Christ. It hasn’t been a settled doctrine and it still isn’t. I have done a lot of studying on tithing and it is surprising to me that the earliest example of tithing being rendered in money that I have been able to verify is fewer than two hundred years ago. Look up the Tithes Commutation Act, if your interested.

The Tithe Commutation Act, 1836 (6&7 Will. IV, c. 71) allowed payment of tithes in kind to be substituted by money payments.

Notice the year (1836) and the fact that the Act “allowed” the tithe to be substituted for money. So it’s not as long ago as you might think. Also, on this continent, (but before the Revolutionary War) tithes was actually paid in tobacco (think about it) and was levied according to how many slaves you owned, and what gender or even race they were. So, the takeaway should be that false doctrine can change. If it can get worse, maybe it can get better as well.

Interesting information, but really doesn’t mean much in how I view tithing.

There are lots of references that cast a positive light on tithing, BUT, there are zero references in scripture that cast a positive light on THIS tithe doctrine that is taught today. Because it didn’t exist in the Bible.

If you are referring to putting salvation requirements on tithing then yes I would agree. If you are talking about suggesting percentages “based upon” Old Testament examples to support you local church, I would disagree.

“Base upon”- to use an idea, a fact, a situation, etc. as the point from which something can be developed

You mention stumbling on Russel Kelley videos and people learning from the internet. Thank God for that. I have been accused of learning my tithe doctrine from the internet, but it’s not true. I learned it from the Bible.

My conclusions came from the Bible as well. We all get our information from somewhere, but we must make sure it doesn’t violate scripture.

This right here.

It is painfully obvious that the various types of tithe doctrine that is taught today did not come from the Bible. What you say about nobody challenging your beliefs is a huge indication of where this false doctrine came from. It’s preachers getting together and patting each other on the back and not comparing their self serving doctrine to God’s word. And of course silencing anyone who dares to ask for scripture to verify their opinion. (Have you noticed how many times I have requested scriptural support for doctrine?)

Many scriptures have been given as examples to why 10%. No one on this thread has made tithing a doctrine.

This is no different than farmers lamenting the low price of a bushel of corn. Or Sheetrock finishers complaining about the square foot price of hanging rock. Everyone likes to believe they provide a valuable service. But pastors are the only ones that individually (not a government entity) have the hubris to proclaim entitlement to a tenth of our income. Think about that.

You are directing that at the wrong person. As I have already said , I don’t receive anyones tithes.

I have a much different perspective on this than yours. (Obviously). There is none so blind as he who will not see. These preachers that believe they are right also believe they shouldn’t have to stoop so low as to su pport their doctrine with scripture. I call it willful ignorance. They don’t know the truth, and they are determined to not learn the truth.

There are still certain books I will not read because they are so opposite my faith. Many people won’t hear the opposition because they are afraid of becoming disillusioned. I will agree that some peoples doctrine may be wrong, but it doesn’t always mean their motives are.

In regards to the bold statement above, I appreciate the advice and I try to be careful. However, if you didn’t notice, I usually preach to the preachers. They should long be weaned from the milk of the word and ready to move on to meat and potatoes.

I am not referring to your interactions on this forum. I know saints that would be greatly affected by suddenly their pastor switching stances. I am not suggesting teaching false doctrine, but interestingly Paul was ok with Timothy being circumcised even though he seen no NT command for it.

Otherwise . . .
I have met multitudes of honest, loving, well meaning, giving, etc. Muslims, Catholics, alcoholics, preachers, pastors, etc. . But they being all that doesn’t save them. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. And according to scripture ALL liars are going there.

It is becoming more and more rare for teaching tithing to be a salvation issue. Obeying the gospel is certainly a salvation issue. You are not comparing apples to apples.

How do you preach to an alcoholic about all drunkards are going to hell, without saying it?

That is never my approach with anyone anyways. Not a very productive approach.

Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

In the above verse, thieves, covetous, extortioners, all can be directly tied to the pastors that preach commonly held tenets of the tithe doctrine.

I disagree. If you want to lump us all in that category feel free.

They steal through deceptively manipulating the scripture, they covet money that they are not entitled to, and in some cases, they extort money from the saints by claiming that they can’t be saved unless they give one tenth of their income

.

It isn’t theft if someone gives.

Coveting has to do with someone’s motives which you don’t know. Also you could apply that to offerings received as well. Which NT scripture supports.

Some may extort, but some may not. It all depends on how it is taught.

If we don’t tell a drunkard that being so will put him in hell, will he be in heaven, because we didn’t preach to him?

Every alcoholic I’ve ever known didn’t need me to tell them how they are going to hell. They where living as close as one could get to it here on this earth. I preach Jesus to them.

If we don’t tell a preacher that lying about tithes will put him in hell, is he going to make it to heaven?

By that philosophy won’t any of us make it, because you are assuming we must have perfect doctrine. If we fail to teach any scripture in proper context then we are then liars and damned for eternity. I personally believe God will judge each of us case by case.

It something to think about. Are our pastors in danger of hellfire. Paul mentioned that lest he preaching to them, he himself should become a castaway. We don’t seem to believe a pastor can be lost.

I am sure pastors can be lost.

If what the word of God says is insulting to yours and Brother Blume’s character, the obvious choice would be to repent. However, if it’s my words, and they are inconsistent with scripture, or even contradict scripture, I wouldn’t worry about it at all.

I am not too worried about your words. I actually enjoy the dialogue. You may think I am hell bound, but I am enjoying the exercise of words.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Amen brother! I totally agree.

But isn’t it interesting that tithing agriculture from outside of the promised land was forbidden, but tithing money from outside the promised land is perfectly fine?

Why is that?

I learned from my Father Abraham

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I learned from my Father Abraham

... yet the apostles never applied it the way you are. Something must be wrong in your hermeneutics, don't you think?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I learned from my Father Abraham

Meaning?