Bernard continues his rewrite of UPC history

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

It is what makes them distinct from the rest of Christianity, and irrelevant to the historical revisionism that is taking place.

Not sure what you mean but yes they are distinct from the rest of Christianity in the sense that they have been blessed by Elohim to restore two of the most important doctrines of it.

To me whatever revisionism has been done is not as important as the preaching of full New Covenant Christianity to the present world in which we live. This must include both Oneness doctrine and Acts 2:38 as the complete new birth.

I do not praise any Oneness org I am aware of. They all are sorely lacking in truth. Yet I do really appreciate those who are still holding onto these important truths. If they are allowed to be lost again it may be another 1000 years before they are re-restored.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

It seems to me like modern Oneness is again dropping the ball. The very two issues that Oneness excels in more and more are being pushed to the side. The Oneness of God and the Acts 2:38 new birth teaching.

Modern Oneness seems to really admire Evangelical Protestant teaching. I guess it just seems so much easier. To me it seems like these two issues are really the great contribution Oneness brings to those who believe in Jesus.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Not sure what you mean but yes they are distinct from the rest of Christianity in the sense that they have been blessed by Elohim to restore two of the most important doctrines of it.

To me whatever revisionism has been done is not as important as the preaching of full New Covenant Christianity to the present world in which we live. This must include both Oneness doctrine and Acts 2:38 as the complete new birth.

I do not praise any Oneness org I am aware of. They all are sorely lacking in truth. Yet I do really appreciate those who are still holding onto these important truths. If they are allowed to be lost again it may be another 1000 years before they are re-restored.

So good that someone found them, smack of LDS to me. They weren't lost because they never were. The development of modern Oneness theology combined with the Water and Spirit teaching is unique to the 20th Century, no other group in history held those two components.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

So good that someone found them, smack of LDS to me. They weren't lost because they never were. The development of modern Oneness theology combined with the Water and Spirit teaching is unique to the 20th Century, no other group in history held those two components.

This is exactly what Im talking about. You seem to reject both the Oneness message as well as the new birth teaching. You evidently are a Evangelical/Protestant?

Where do you agree with what you are calling "Apostolic"?

Where do you disagree with Evangelical Protestants on the Godhead and new birth?

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

This is exactly what Im talking about. You seem to reject both the Oneness message as well as the new birth teaching. You evidently are a Evangelical/Protestant?

Where do you agree with what you are calling "Apostolic"?

Where do you disagree with Evangelical Protestants on the Godhead and new birth?

I didn't reject anything I stated historical facts. See this is exactly what this thread is about, honesty when dealing with historical facts.

[UnTraditional]

The notion that the Oneness doctrine was hidden for centuries since the times of the Apostles is absolutely false. Because God has preserved His Word, and we know that it is true, and that the truth is clearly defined in scripture, the Oneness doctrine has indeed always been around. Even if the majority of people did not believe it, and the false church tried to silence it, God has preserved His Word to show us the doctrine is there, and always has been. I wish we Apostolics would get enough of a spiritual backbone to see this lie is nothing more than a discredit attempt by the enemy. The One God doctrine has always been around, as has been the doctrine of water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. It is not some 'new' doctrine, but is a true doctrine preserved in the Word through the ages.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

The notion that the Oneness doctrine was hidden for centuries since the times of the Apostles is absolutely false. Because God has preserved His Word, and we know that it is true, and that the truth is clearly defined in scripture, the Oneness doctrine has indeed always been around. Even if the majority of people did not believe it, and the false church tried to silence it, God has preserved His Word to show us the doctrine is there, and always has been. I wish we Apostolics would get enough of a spiritual backbone to see this lie is nothing more than a discredit attempt by the enemy. The One God doctrine has always been around, as has been the doctrine of water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. It is not some 'new' doctrine, but is a true doctrine preserved in the Word through the ages.

Give me one group older than the 20th Century who believed both of this things, we can start with just one and see how connected these two doctrines are to the past.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

It seems to me like modern Oneness is again dropping the ball. The very two issues that Oneness excels in more and more are being pushed to the side. The Oneness of God and the Acts 2:38 new birth teaching.

Modern Oneness seems to really admire Evangelical Protestant teaching. I guess it just seems so much easier. To me it seems like these two issues are really the great contribution Oneness brings to those who believe in Jesus.

It is pathetic and complete error. Very sad indeed. Don't you just love reformed views of all sorts that followed many in and have placed a nice smell all over the movement. lol smh

[llambert]

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

The notion that the Oneness doctrine was hidden for centuries since the times of the Apostles is absolutely false. Because God has preserved His Word, and we know that it is true, and that the truth is clearly defined in scripture, the Oneness doctrine has indeed always been around. Even if the majority of people did not believe it, and the false church tried to silence it, God has preserved His Word to show us the doctrine is there, and always has been. I wish we Apostolics would get enough of a spiritual backbone to see this lie is nothing more than a discredit attempt by the enemy. The One God doctrine has always been around, as has been the doctrine of water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. It is not some 'new' doctrine, but is a true doctrine preserved in the Word through the ages.

I agree with Michael that UPCI is at least holding to promoting two very biblical doctrines that are very, very important and that for whatever reasons, weren't being promoted as much in centuries past. Many groups believed these doctrines. To say that these doctrines are new or false just because they weren't taught by persons who were considered of some stature in the history of Christendom is to open up a box that to me is leading away from Christ and towards humanity and man's ways and philosophies taking precedence.

There is a colloquialism/pun that to be saved and defeat Satan, we need an "AX and Two 38s". This joke reminds me that the word is quick and sharp and powerful. It can be used to cut people up and kill, so we need to be careful how we weild it and not use it as a weapon on each other.

I think that a sector of the Oneness/Apostolic or Jesus name movement has been historically guilty of being too heavy handed in many cases with how they they have promoted the Acts 2:38 and Oneness teachings- beating people over the head, telling people they are going to hell, being dogmatic, argumentative, prone to debate, not meeting persons at the points of their need, but in too many cases pushing doctrines that to the souls they are dealing with appear to be irrelevant.

And add to that the air that "We have the truth and they don't" that can settle on people and we have a real disaster that causes the movement on a whole in some circles (and the UPCI in particular) to be labeled cultish by some and ridiculous by others.

What I think is needed is that those of us who believe that Jesus is Father, Son and Holy Spirit need to realize how these beliefs affect practical day to day realities of living in a world of economic failure, govenmental disarray and uncertainty and social change. Once we realize this personally, we can begin to speak hope and encouragement to the many broken and questioning souls that God is placing in our paths everyday.

I do think though, that if we have blots in our past histories as the UPCI seems to, we need to just fess up- look this was this, this happened, now this is what is happening and move on- othewise Satan will always have a toehold and we'll be limping along in life.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by llambert

I agree with Michael that UPCI is at least holding to promoting two very biblical doctrines that are very, very important and that for whatever reasons, weren't being promoted as much in centuries past. Many groups believed these doctrines. To say that these doctrines are new or false just because they weren't taught by persons who were considered of some stature in the history of Christendom is to open up a box that to me is leading away from Christ and towards humanity and man's ways and philosophies taking precedence.

There is a colloquialism/pun that to be saved and defeat Satan, we need an "AX and Two 38s". This joke reminds me that the word is quick and sharp and powerful. It can be used to cut people up and kill, so we need to be careful how we weild it and not use it as a weapon on each other.

I think that a sector of the Oneness/Apostolic or Jesus name movement has been historically guilty of being too heavy handed in many cases with how they they have promoted the Acts 2:38 and Oneness teachings- beating people over the head, telling people they are going to hell, being dogmatic, argumentative, prone to debate, not meeting persons at the points of their need, but in too many cases pushing doctrines that to the souls they are dealing with appear to be irrelevant.

And add to that the air that "We have the truth and they don't" that can settle on people and we have a real disaster that causes the movement on a whole in some circles (and the UPCI in particular) to be labeled cultish by some and ridiculous by others.

What I think is needed is that those of us who believe that Jesus is Father, Son and Holy Spirit need to realize how these beliefs affect practical day to day realities of living in a world of economic failure, govenmental disarray and uncertainty and social change. Once we realize this personally, we can begin to speak hope and encouragement to the many broken and questioning souls that God is placing in our paths everyday.

I do think though, that if we have blots in our past histories as the UPCI seems to, we need to just fess up- look this was this, this happened, now this is what is happening and move on- othewise Satan will always have a toehold and we'll be limping along in life.

[LifeGuide]

@davidkbernard: At merger to form UPCI (1945), PAJC had 346 churches & PCI had 175 churches. At least 85% of ministers held that Acts 2:38 was new birth. (via Bro. Bernard's latest tweet).