Everybody must have a pastor? - Page 14

Evang.Benincasa · #**131** 01-22-2016, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

No I don't.

Would you put something together soon?

Then send it to me.

mfblume · #**132** 01-23-2016, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Would you put something together soon?

Then send it to me.

Will try!

Godsdrummer · #**133** 01-23-2016, 08:14 AM

We talk about scripture backing, but I can find no where in scripture that directs the church that there is to be a singular leader over the local assembly. How has the pastor the least of the gifts become the singular leader over so many churches? Especially when the term pastor is only used one time in all the NT.

Going one step father every time leadership is spoken of in the NT we find the plural terms not singular. Paul did not instruct Timothy to set an elder over the churches but rather elders.

Scripture does not say submit to the pastor anywhere, it does say submit one to another.

I have to say that we don't have an answer to the original question, because the spiritual authority set up in most churches is not biblical.

Sadly the church has become just another religious sect and not the vibrant moving ecclesia it was in the first century. When the church was persecuted in Jerusalem it grew in leaps and bounds. Because the saints that fled Jerusalem spread the good news. These were not apostles nor preachers. One could easily say thy did not have leaders yet they saw many believe. Who were these saints pastors?

mfblume · #**134** 01-23-2016, 09:12 AM

I see no least of gifts. They're all equally needed.

good samaritan · #**135** 01-23-2016, 12:15 PM

I think we don't use the original terms of some of these ministries although they still exist we identify them differently. When I hear someone called a prophet I think of someone who predicts future events. When they spoke in tongues and prophesied in the scriptures I feel they were speaking the word with an unction from God just like some preaching today (it doesn't have to always be future tense). God gave these ministries to the church and if we are still the church the ministry definitely still actively exist today.

Also the fact that if people refer to themselves as an apostle or a prophet we think it is arrogant. I agree with Bro. Blume I think the ministries are all equally important. Yet every one seems to hold some in higher regards then others. I think this is a "demean everyone called pastor" thread, but we all may be off in our interpretations a little.

As for plural elders on in a single assemble that is conjecture. When Paul spoke to the elders or bishops of a city as a plurality of leaders there is no way to prove there wasn't also a plurality of assemblies within that city. As CC said in a earlier post if you have multiple pastor/elders in your church and it works then great. If your church has a single pastor/elder in your church great so long as the church is doing what it is supposed to do the way it is supposed to do it.

Call it what you will, but if someone comes in your life speaking the word of God you better submit (no matter who are how many). It is not because the man is above you, but because God is (Don't kill the messenger). If you have a pastor of your local assembly who you find in error go to him about it. If he refuses to listen do what the scriptures say to do concerning someone in a fault.

Don't disrespect the the leadership of the local church, but don't depend on him to give you a relationship with God either. Walking with the Lord is personal but we all need instructors in some capacity or another in every walk of our life even people that currently hold a position in leadership.

Monterrey · #**136** 01-23-2016, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

We talk about scripture backing, but I can find no where in scripture that directs the church that there is to be a singular leader over the local assembly. How has the pastor the least of the gifts become the singular leader over so many churches? Especially when the term pastor is only used one time in all the NT.

Going one step father every time leadership is spoken of in the NT we find the plural terms not singular. Paul did not instruct Timothy to set an elder over the churches but rather elders.

Scripture does not say submit to the pastor anywhere, it does say submit one to another.

I have to say that we don't have an answer to the original question, because the spiritual authority set up in most churches is not biblical.

Sadly the church has become just another religious sect and not the vibrant moving ecclesia it was in the first century. When the church was persecuted in Jerusalem it grew in leaps and bounds. Because the saints that fled Jerusalem spread the good news. These were not apostles nor preachers. One could easily say thy did not have leaders yet they saw many believe. Who were these saints pastors?

The Greek is the word poimen, which is used 18 times in the new Testament, just saying.

G4166
ποιμήν
poimēn
poy-mane'
Of uncertain affinity; a shepherd (literally or figuratively): - shepherd, pastor.

Mat 26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me, (1722) this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd,4166 and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

mfblume · #**137** 01-23-2016, 05:18 PM

Plainly put, the reason PASTOR is focused upon more is due to lack of supernatural moving in certain circles. We have non-prophet organizations because the gifts of the Spirit are not in operation too much. Don't get me wrong.... all focus on gifts of the Spirit is not good, since the FRUIT is what determines maturity, just as in a tree. But still, the gifts require stepping out in faith and that lacks so much in a materialistically ridden mind.

It's easy to the flesh to accept the shepherd role since there's so many visibly practical things about a genuine shepherd, not one in name alone.

Godsdrummer · #**138** 01-23-2016, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

We talk about scripture backing, but I can find no where in scripture that directs the church that there is to be a singular leader over the local assembly. How has the pastor the least of the gifts become the singular leader over so many churches? Especially when the term pastor is only used one time in all the NT.

Sorry if the words do not get expressed when coming from my brain to my fingers some times. But what I meant to say is the word in is only translated "pastor" one time rather than shepherd.

Going one step father every time leadership is spoken of in the NT we find the plural terms not singular. Paul did not instruct Timothy to set an elder over the churches but rather elders.

Scripture does not say submit to the pastor anywhere, it does say submit one to another.

I have to say that we don't have an answer to the original question, because the spiritual authority set up in most churches is not biblical.

Sadly the church has become just another religious sect and not the vibrant moving ecclesia it was in the first century. When the church was persecuted in Jerusalem it grew in leaps and bounds. Because the saints that fled Jerusalem spread the good news. These were not apostles nor preachers. One could easily say thy did not have leaders yet they saw many believe. Who were these saints pastors?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monterrey

The Greek is the word poimen, which is used 18 times in the new Testament, just saying.

G4166
ποιμήν
poimēn
poy-mane'
Of uncertain affinity; a shepherd (literally or figuratively): - shepherd, pastor.

Mat 26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me, (1722) this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd,4166 and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

Not sure what your wanting to get across with the passage above, But Christ is our shepherd as spoken many times through out the NT. And if someone is gifted to be a shepherd by all means let them learn what a shepherd is and act like one.

Godsdrummer · #**139** 01-23-2016, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

I see no least of gifts. They're all equally needed.

Mike I agree that statement did not come out as my mind was thinking. There is no least gift! Neither is there a greater gift, which is why they are to work together. All within the local assembly.

Basically I think we have it backwards, when we call the gift the ministry. The Saints are to be the ministers, and the gifts of ministry are given to equip the saints for that ministry, which is something I found lacking in most churches.
Most churches in my life the emphasis was getting people "saved" then straightening them out. Not ministering to the lost and one another.

mfblume · #**140** 01-23-2016, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Mike I agree that statement did not come out as my mind was thinking. There is no least gift! Neither is there a greater gift, which is why they are to work together. All within the local assembly.

Basically I think we have it backwards, when we call the gift the ministry. The Saints are to be the ministers, and the gifts of ministry are given to equip the saints for that ministry, which is something I found lacking in most churches.
Most churches in my life the emphasis was getting people "saved" then straightening them out. Not ministering to the lost and one another.

Amen. We need preachers to show us how to let God use us and work through all members. THAT is a pastor. Feeding sheep the bread and wine of how the work of the cross puts them all in places of power... the same power that resurrected and enthroned Jesus! Imagine what we could do big that was preached to us steadily!