A Picture of Grace from God's Point of View

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

being that God judges a person's heart, and God's ways are not our ways, at some point you have to admit that God may not be using our yardstick to condemn or bless, ergo any statements about your own salvation, let alone others, become spurious. I have a feeling we're as close as we're going to get here.

It's not our yardstick. It's his. His Word.

lol

I mean, how hard is it to understand the word when we read:

Mar 16:16 KJV He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

A guy simply doesn't want to accept what it says to think otherwise. Those are very easily understood, non-vague words. Such statements are not complex and distortable. They're not of the nature of being subject to interpretation.

Belief is not hard issue either.

Jesus said the apostles explained how to believe.

John 17:20 KJV Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

[Evang.Benincasa]

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by mfblume

It's not our yardstick. It's his. His Word.

lol

I mean, how hard is it to understand the word when we read:

Mar 16:16 KJV He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

A guy simply doesn't want to accept what it says to think otherwise. Those are very easily understood, non-vague words. Such statements are not complex and distortable. They're not of the nature of being subject to interpretation.

Belief is not hard issue either.

Jesus said the apostles explained how to believe.

John 17:20 KJV Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

But Jesus leaves out "...and receives the gift of the Holy Ghost with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues shall be saved."

Notice He says "believes not shall be damned." He doesn't say "believes not and is baptized not shall be damned."

Isn't salvation being saved from damnation? So damnation is the result of not believing NOT failing to be baptized---or speaking in other tongues---or jumping through hoops---or proving your worth---etc etc etc

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

But Jesus leaves out "...and receives the gift of the Holy Ghost with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues shall be saved."

Notice He says "believes not shall be damned." He doesn't say "believes not and is baptized not shall be damned."

Isn't salvation being saved from damnation? So damnation is the result of not believing NOT failing to be baptized---or speaking in other tongues---or jumping through hoops---or proving your worth---etc etc etc

One might also add that John 17:20 does not say "explain how to believe" rather simply believe on him by their words. Simply put by proclaiming the good news that Christ was Messiah and his kingdom had come, they would believe.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

But Jesus leaves out "...and receives the gift of the Holy Ghost with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues shall be saved."

Notice He says "believes not shall be damned." He doesn't say "believes not and is baptized not shall be damned."

Isn't salvation being saved from damnation? So damnation is the result of not believing NOT failing to be baptized---or speaking in other tongues---or jumping through hoops---or proving your worth---etc etc etc

If you don't believe you won't get baptized. but Jesus distinctly put the combination of baptism and faith for salvation.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

One might also add that John 17:20 does not say "explain how to believe" rather simply believe on him by their words. Simply put by proclaiming the good news that Christ was Messiah and his kingdom had come, they would believe.

believing by their words can only mean what they preached in Acts since their words are not displayed in the gospels.

The book of Acts shows the message sinners must obey to be saved. and it provides the only evidence anyone ever provided about initial reception of the Spirit.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by mfblume

believing by their words can only mean what they preached in Acts since their words are not displayed in the gospels.

The book of Acts shows the message sinners must obey to be saved. and it provides the only evidence anyone ever provided about initial reception of the Spirit.

That is confirmed by the first sermon preached by the apostles after Jesus left in Acts 2, when they coined it as the apostles' doctrine. that's their word. their doctrine.