Elephant in the room - accusation of judging

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

I do not know why you stated this last paragraph. More of the missing thoughts from your writing I guess.


ya, prolly. i was just throwing that out there because everyone is wringing their hands over Muslims now, signing petitions to restrict Muslim immigration, preaching "All Muslims are lost," while our Gov is busy bombing them into oblivion, but we pretend there is Separation of church/State.

You might find some room in your doctrine for You reap what you sow.

Firstly, I am Canadian. And secondly, what the gov't does is what the gov't is doing.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Maybe YOU would feel superior against someone if you made statements like "all muslims are lost." But that does not enter my mind when I say that. You really do assume far too much.

if i hated you, Michael, it would serve me better to just shut up and let your daughters marry Muslims. People trapped in a superiority complex are generally in denial--and i am not immune, i struggle with this too--and as it stems from poor self-esteem, it is just a defense mechanism. So you have to overcome the denial, and understand that i am not assuming anything, as "Everyone who does not follow my doctrine is lost" tells me all i need to know, and any condescending or attacking just verifies it.

Sorry you are assuming things. That came out quite clearly when the muslim with whom I talked told me I was lost because I believe Jesus is God's Son, and you reacted as though nothing was wrong -- the very thing you accused me for in damning hysterics. .

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Again, I'm not following your writing. i cannot tell what you are trying to say. Explain yourself more clearly. You do not write clearly.

do i have to say that maybe you just cannot read clearly, or that it serves you to lecture me on my writing? If you will just point out the grammatical errors in any of those 3 sentences, i will correct it for you, ok? But they are just a prophecy based upon you reap what you sow.

see that the solution is obvious, because it is what you don't want to do.

if you build higher walls rather than longer tables, what you fear is what will happen, and you know this because it is what you fear--do i need to dig up the verse?

If you cannot fathom how All Muslims are Lost enables the chaos we are witnessing in your name on the other side of the planet, that is coming to you, then perhaps that is a better frame for this conversation.

It is not grammar errors. I already said you are saying things without adding the extra needed thoughts in your mind to be written with them.

Now, answer some of mine for a change.

[mfblume]

Shazeep, do you believe muslims or ANYONE is lost if they do not even believe Jesus died on the cross? If not, then why? If so, then why?

Shazeep,:
Joh 3:17-18 KJV For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Do you believe these verses indicate that people who do not believe they need be saved through Christ are saved? If so, why? If not, why? What does it mean to not believe on Him, and why are they condemned if they do not believe on Him?

I predict you cannot answer these questions or will refuse.

Also, what is there between me and muslims that I need to forgive them for? You spoke of forgiveness, and I do not recognize why I would have to forgive them for I personally have nothing against them. The bible says we need faith in the work of the cross to be saved, and they deny the cross even occurred, so how can they have faith in it to be saved? That's my conclusion. It's nothing personal. lol Forgiveness is required when someone has hurt me personally. There is no personal issue here, since it is a general overview of faith compared to faith. Not people. I know people are involved, but the people are the issue. It's their faith.

When it comes to forgiveness it's been you who has taken this personally and attacked me as a person.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Shazeep, do you believe muslims or ANYONE is lost if they do not even believe Jesus died on the cross? If not, then why? If so, then why?

Shazeep,:

Joh 3:17-18 KJV For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Do you believe these verses indicate that people who do not believe they need be saved through Christ are saved? If so, why? If not, why? What does it mean to not believe on Him, and why are they condemned if they do not believe on Him?

I predict you cannot answer these questions or will refuse.

look, an understanding of this verse is great, but you have accepted a definition of it given to you, and now great swaths of other Scripture are ignored in the name of doctrine in order to condemn others. Didn't revealing Love in every other doctrinal verse you have quoted at me teach you anything? So, ok, let's take a look at this verse then:

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

It is God's will that all might be saved. Can you point to any instances of
God's will being thwarted? Can you even define saved for anyone other than yourself? I know you think you can, but when pressed you didn't do so well there, did you? When you can answer how women might be saved in childbirth then you can trust a little more in your understanding of "saved," ok? Why "might?"

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

ok, if you want to get technical, Jesus was not the name that Christ went by anyway, so you're doomed. And you are nothing if not technical, so i'm done. But you basically have the same issue with this verse, that your definition of "believe" is a construct, which we have already examined, and we already know that millions of people claim to believe--are you saying they are saved now? Because reading this verse in a vacuum suggests that they are, does it not?

So how then do all Catholics become lost? I don't get it. Of course, the answer is that God can make believers from rocks, and satan also believes, and it is those who do the right thing that are righteous, and the real believers. Now all this is off the cuff, and since i'm here i'll say that this is likely worded this way so that anyone who is a hater can seize upon it and use it against everyone who does not "believe" like them, thus revealing their hearts.

i see a reflection in "you will contend with them" paraphrased, maybe its "they will contend with you," @ "Ishmael" in Scripture--why would God provide a contender? Because you want to contend, not because contention of this sort is a good thing. Contend for the faith! But that likely means something different for you, i guess...so be it. your heart will be revealed, and you will reap what you sow.

Every knee will bow, and every tongue confess that Christ is Lord. If you know this, what is the point of attacking anyone who does not understand or agree with your doctrine? Or defending against them, or whatever--exhibiting the signs of fear? If the war on drugs brought more drugs, the war on poverty made us all poorer, and the war on Afghanistan results in the Taliban controlling more territory than ever, how do expect the war on Muslims to be any different?

Could you please just admit that you believe saying "All Muslims are lost" has nothing to do with our governments unilateral actions in the Mideast right now, so i can call you stupid and move on?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Sorry you are assuming things. That came out quite clearly when the muslim with whom I talked told me I was lost because I believe Jesus is God's Son, and you reacted as though nothing was wrong -- the very thing you accused me for in damning hysterics. .

i don't expect a Catholic to agree with me verbally, much less a Muslim, Mike. You went looking for division, and you found it. Congratulations. I talk to Muslims and find agreement. You are likely expecting a religion that arose when the RCC was raging to agree with the RCC in their view, when you don't even do that. So the only thing that came out clearly was your preconceptions, sorry.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

It is not grammar errors. I already said you are saying things without adding the extra needed thoughts in your mind to be written with them.

Now, answer some of mine for a change.

possibly those were just not for you then, no big deal. Fire away.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

look, an understanding of this verse is great, but you have accepted a definition of it given to you, and now great swaths of other Scripture are ignored in the name of doctrine in order to condemn others.

I know you think that way. Yada yada yada. That's aside from the point. That's why I am asking you for YOUR thoughts on the passage and how it affects salvation or not. You are dodging again.

Didn't revealing Love in every other doctrinal verse you have quoted at me teach you anything? So, ok, let's take a look at this verse then:

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

It is God's will that all might be saved. Can you point to any instances of
God's will being thwarted? Can you even define saved for anyone other than yourself?

Again, aside from the point., The point is WHAT YOU THINK OF THIS and how you make your conclusions based on this passage. I know it's hard, since you have a vendetta against me. But please try to focus. What are YOUR thoughts apart from any reference to me or mine?

I know you think you can, but when pressed you didn't do so well there, did you? When you can answer how women might be saved in childbirth then you can trust a little more in your understanding of "saved," ok? Why "might?"

I was not even sure what you were asking. I can deal with that then. But first things fist. Stop referring to me, stop being personal, and show what YOU get from these passages.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

ok, if you want to get technical, Jesus was not the name that Christ went by anyway, so you're doomed.

Can't stay away from me, can you>

And you are nothing if not technical, so i'm done.

lol

See? Dodge dodge dodge. You cannto deal with a passage in itself.

[quote] But you basically have the same issue with this verse, that your definition of "believe" is a construct, [/quote\]

I am not asking for your thoughts of my beliefs. I know them too well. lol

Just tell me YOUR beliefs and how these verses affect your thoughts/

which we have already examined, and we already know that millions of people claim to believe--are you saying they are saved now? Because reading this verse in a vacuum suggests that they are, does it not?

So how then do all Catholics become lost? I don't get it. Of course, the answer is that God can make believers from rocks, and satan also believes, and it is those who do the right thing that are righteous, and the real believers. Now all this is off the cuff, and since i'm here i'll say that this is likely worded this way so that anyone who is a hater can seize upon it and use it against everyone who does not "believe" like them, thus revealing their hearts.

Ah, the old God deceives people with His word, trick.

Again, I know you got a weird way of thinking of the word. But tell me what this verse does to your thoughts and how it forms your conclusions about who is saved and lost. And why.

i see a reflection in "you will contend with them" paraphrased, maybe its "they will contend with you," @ "Ishmael" in Scripture--why would God provide a contender? Because you want to contend, not because contention of this sort is a good thing. Contend for the faith! But that likely means something different for you, i guess...so be it. your heart will be revealed, and you will reap what you sow.

You really cannot talk bible, can you? You have to attack me in every moment you get. All I asked was YOUR opinion and how YOUR faith forms from this passage. But it's MIKE BLUME MIKE BLUME MIKE BLUME.

Every knee will bow, and every tongue confess that Christ is Lord. If you know this, what is the point of attacking anyone who does not understand or agree with your doctrine? Or defending against them, or whatever--exhibiting the signs of fear? If the war on drugs brought more drugs, the war on poverty made us all poorer, and the war on Afghanistan results in the Taliban controlling more territory than ever, how do expect the war on Muslims to be any different?

Aside from the point. WHat do these verses say to YOUR faith?

Could you please just admit that you believe saying "All Muslims are lost" has nothing to do with our governments unilateral actions in the Mideast right now, so i can call you stupid and move on?

Wow. Could not take this single post and deal with actual bible, but you just HAVE TO make it about me.

Wow,

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i don't expect a Catholic to agree with me verbally, much less a Muslim, Mike. You went looking for division, and you found it. Congratulations. I talk to Muslims and find agreement. You are likely expecting a religion that arose when the RCC was raging to agree with the RCC in their view, when you don't even do that. So the only thing that came out clearly was your preconceptions, sorry.

I looked for nothing. I just wanted to see if a muslim would do what you accused me of doing, and then see how you would react. You failed with flying colours.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

possibly those were just not for you then, no big deal. Fire away.

lol. whatever.

Now, tell me what these verses do to YOUR faith and what conclusions YOU get from them:

Joh 3:17-18 KJV For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Do you believe these verses indicate that people who do not believe they need be saved through Christ are saved? If so, why? If not, why? What does it mean to not believe on Him, and why are they condemned if they do not believe on Him?