Law was an impossible system to keep

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

In my {humble} opinion.. in that 7th chapter of Romans, Paul was talking about how the will to do good was present when all he had was Law, before Calvary. But then in Romans 8:1 there is a change of his tone, and hope! There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.... so I truly believe that when Paul wrote the last part of chapter 7, he was speaking of the old law that did not have the power to change us.

I agree. I also see this as applicable to those in the church who try to please God by law-like works. It cannot be done now any more than it could before the cross. The reason I say this is because Paul's use of walking after the flesh is using law in Romans 8, and the same note is applied in Galatians 5 to those in the church. He urges the born again saints to walk after the Spirit so they don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Otherwise, they will fail, too!

[mfblume]

What I came to see in all of this is how we allow the Lord's Spirit to work through us to bear fruit. We fulfill what the law could not successfully get man to do by learning to let the Spirit flow through us and cooperate with Him. And we have flesh that contains sin, and trying to please God in fleshly lawkeeping will see us continually manifest works of the flesh instead of Fruit. I think that's why Paul spoke of this in Gal 5 and said they'd bite and devour one another since nothing but works of the flesh come forth from lives, though saved, only know how to obey commandments and not live by the Spirit. So they will forever be carnal christians who fuss all the time. But when the Spirit is leaned upon for strength, letting the sap flow from the vine into the branches, we bear fruit of the Spirit.

[KeptByTheWord]

So very true Bro. B. It is a tricky thing... works. We must have them, and we are judged if we don't have them (as in how Christ judged the 7 churches in Rev).... yet if our motive of doing the works is fleshly driven... our works are unacceptable.

I really like what you said earlier... (paraphrasing) we obey Him because of our gratefulness to the gift of righteousness He has clothed us with.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

So very true Bro. B. It is a tricky thing... works. We must have them, and we are judged if we don't have them (as in how Christ judged the 7 churches in Rev).... yet if our motive of doing the works is fleshly driven... our works are unacceptable.

I really like what you said earlier... (paraphrasing) we obey Him because of our gratefulness to the gift of righteousness He has clothed us with.

Even the motive might be good, but I think Paul is teaching us that just the simple fact that a person is trying to please God BY SELF ENERGY such a believer will miserably fail and see sin rise up in the flesh and eventually slay him or her. I believe he explained walking after the flesh is using fleshly natural energy, with no reliance on the Spirit, to serve God.

Notice the last verse of chapter 7 summing up what he explained in the chapter. Serving God with the flesh actually caused him to serve the law of sin and death. Serving God in his mind -- which is really agreeing with what the Law said and willing to obey the law- was serving God. In other words, as far as HIS MIND was concerned, it was in line with God's law. His mind did not disagree with Law and wanted to fulfill it. But when it came to fulfilling it through his flesh in real-life living, he instead served the law of sin and death.

So... after he established the fact that SERVING GOD WITH FLESH does not work, he referred to that method of keeping laws with natural power as "walking after the flesh." And if we walk after the flesh we shall die, which is exactly what he said in Romans 7:

Romans 7:9-10 KJV For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. (10) And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.


I really believe that the following verses that mention flesh refer to the medthod of serving God using natural will power to keep laws, and it brings the death of Rom 7:9-10.

Romans 8:5-6 KJV For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. (6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Minding the things of the flesh is equal to thinking a carnal law can be successfully obeyed without Spirit's help. The things of the Spirit are outlined in Romans 6:13.... thinking and knowing we must rely on the Spirit through prayer and acts of faith in cooperation with Him..

[mfblume]

Reminder for Esaias.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

So very true Bro. B. It is a tricky thing... works. We must have them, and we are judged if we don't have them (as in how Christ judged the 7 churches in Rev).... yet if our motive of doing the works is fleshly driven... our works are unacceptable.

I really like what you said earlier... (paraphrasing) we obey Him because of our gratefulness to the gift of righteousness He has clothed us with.

In my opinion, we need to be more specific. What "works" must we have? I ask this because most can agree with the idea that we need "works". But when we get down to defining those works, almost nobody agrees. Some will argue that we have to keep the Ten Commandments. Some add on various laws out of the Law of Moses. Some actually completely Judaize and argue that we have to keep both the Law of God (the Ten Commandments) and the Law of Moses (entire Torah). Then of course we have organizational, district, and even pastoral "standards". Then even individual believers have their "pet" notions about what we must do.

What "works" do you propose are necessary?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Esaias,

Any more thoughts on the will power Paul noted in Romans 7? Like to hear your thoughts on some of my thoughts and the scriptures I presented.

Blessings!

'Will power' is not in chapter 7. 'Will' however is. I think we are using the term 'will' in different ways. Will can mean the faculty or ability to choose one thing over another, it can mean the faculty of volition (whether free or not) by which one engages in a course of action, or it can mean an amount of 'effort' exerted by determination against contrary motives ('quit smoking by sheer willpower' means one does not use additional aids to counter enticements or urges to smoke, other than their own determination not to smoke, for example), or it can mean to desire something.

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
(Romans 7:18 KJV)

Rom 7:18 οἶδα γὰρ ὅτι οὐκ οἰκεῖ ἐν ἐμοί, τοῦτ᾿ ἔστιν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου, ἀγαθόν· τὸ γὰρ θέλειν παράκειταί μοι, τὸ δὲ κατεργάζεσθαι τὸ καλὸν οὐχ εὑρίσκω.

θέλειν
thelō ethelō
thel'-o, eth-el'-o
Either the first or the second form may be used. In certain tenses θελέω theleō thel-eh'-o (and ἐθέλέω etheleō eth-el-eh'-o) are used, which are otherwise obsolete; apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138; to determine (as an active voice option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014 properly denotes rather a passive voice acquiescence in objective considerations), that is, choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication to wish, that is, be inclined to (sometimes adverbially gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism to delight in: - desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, -ling [ly]). - Strong's.

thelō / ethelō
Thayer Definition:
1) to will, have in mind, intend
1a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose
1b) to desire, to wish
1c) to love
1c1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
1d) to take delight in, have pleasure
Part of Speech: verb - Thayer's.

As we can see, the word has a range of meanings, to be determined by context and usage.

According to the verse, and the other usages in the chapter, it is clear that 'to will' refers to 'desire or wish, to love, to like to do, be fond of doing, take delight in'. He says to will to good is with him, that is, he desires, wants, wishes, to do good. But how to actually accomplish that desire he does not know. From this we can see that 'to will' does NOT mean 'to choose' as an act of volition, because when one actually chooses a course of action they embark on it, they do it, because the choosing and the doing are the exact same thing.

But, we often say 'I choose ABC' when we actually do not, what we really mean is 'I wish ABC or I want ABC'. A person may say 'I will to eat cheesecake' but they do not eat cheesecake because they are concerned about their girlish figure. So they do not actually WILL it, that is, they do not actually CHOOSE to eat cheesecake, they simply desire to eat it, while also desiring NOT to eat it (or at least desiring not to suffer the fattening consequences of eating it).

When understood in this light, the entire premise that Paul is contrasting 'will power' with 'supernatural divine aid' falls apart. The contrast is between mere desire for something, and actually doing it. Which Paul identifies in the next chapter when he says the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in those who walk after the Spirit and not the flesh, and that this is the result of the death of Christ. Christ's death is what causes people to actually obey God. Thus, righteousness as a lifestyle is said to be imparted from God to man, it is the power of God working in a person both to will and to do His good pleasure.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

'Will power' is not in chapter 7. 'Will' however is. I think we are using the term 'will' in different ways. Will can mean the faculty or ability to choose one thing over another, it can mean the faculty of volition (whether free or not) by which one engages in a course of action, or it can mean an amount of 'effort' exerted by determination against contrary motives ('quit smoking by sheer willpower' means one does not use additional aids to counter enticements or urges to smoke, other than their own determination not to smoke, for example), or it can mean to desire something.

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
(Romans 7:18 KJV)

Rom 7:18 οἶδα γὰρ ὅτι οὐκ οἰκεῖ ἐν ἐμοί, τοῦτ᾿ ἔστιν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου, ἀγαθόν· τὸ γὰρ θέλειν παράκειταί μοι, τὸ δὲ κατεργάζεσθαι τὸ καλὸν οὐχ εὑρίσκω.

θέλειν
thelō ethelō
thel'-o, eth-el'-o
Either the first or the second form may be used. In certain tenses θελέω theleō thel-eh'-o (and ἐθέλέω etheleō eth-el-eh'-o) are used, which are otherwise obsolete; apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138; to determine (as an active voice option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014 properly denotes rather a passive voice acquiescence in objective considerations), that is, choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication to wish, that is, be inclined to (sometimes adverbially gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism to delight in: - desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, -ling [ly]). - Strong's.

thelō / ethelō
Thayer Definition:
1) to will, have in mind, intend
1a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose
1b) to desire, to wish
1c) to love
1c1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
1d) to take delight in, have pleasure
Part of Speech: verb - Thayer's.

As we can see, the word has a range of meanings, to be determined by context and usage.

According to the verse, and the other usages in the chapter, it is clear that 'to will' refers to 'desire or wish, to love, to like to do, be fond of doing, take delight in'. He says to will to good is with him, that is, he desires, wants, wishes, to do good. But how to actually accomplish that desire he does not know. From this we can see that 'to will' does NOT mean 'to choose' as an act of volition, because when one actually chooses a course of action they embark on it, they do it, because the choosing and the doing are the exact same thing.

But, we often say 'I choose ABC' when we actually do not, what we really mean is 'I wish ABC or I want ABC'. A person may say 'I will to eat cheesecake' but they do not eat cheesecake because they are concerned about their girlish figure. So they do not actually WILL it, that is, they do not actually CHOOSE to eat cheesecake, they simply desire to eat it, while also desiring NOT to eat it (or at least desiring not to suffer the fattening consequences of eating it).

When understood in this light, the entire premise that Paul is contrasting 'will power' with 'supernatural divine aid' falls apart. The contrast is between mere desire for something, and actually doing it. Which Paul identifies in the next chapter when he says the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in those who walk after the Spirit and not the flesh, and that this is the result of the death of Christ. Christ's death is what causes people to actually obey God. Thus, righteousness as a lifestyle is said to be imparted from God to man, it is the power of God working in a person both to will and to do His good pleasure.

Very good.

Have we ever met?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Very good.

Have we ever met?

Not yet, but perhaps soon.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

'Will power' is not in chapter 7. 'Will' however is. I think we are using the term 'will' in different ways. Will can mean the faculty or ability to choose one thing over another, it can mean the faculty of volition (whether free or not) by which one engages in a course of action, or it can mean an amount of 'effort' exerted by determination against contrary motives ('quit smoking by sheer willpower' means one does not use additional aids to counter enticements or urges to smoke, other than their own determination not to smoke, for example), or it can mean to desire something.

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
(Romans 7:18 KJV)

Rom 7:18 ???? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ??????, ?????? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???, ????????? ??? ???? ??????? ???????????? ???, ??? ??? ?????????????? ??? ?????? ???? ?????????.

???????
thelo? ethelo?
thel'-o, eth-el'-o
Either the first or the second form may be used. In certain tenses ?????? theleo? thel-eh'-o (and ????????? etheleo? eth-el-eh'-o) are used, which are otherwise obsolete; apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138; to determine (as an active voice option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014 properly denotes rather a passive voice acquiescence in objective considerations), that is, choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication to wish, that is, be inclined to (sometimes adverbially gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism to delight in: - desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, -ling [ly]). - Strong's.

thelo? / ethelo?
Thayer Definition:
1) to will, have in mind, intend
1a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose
1b) to desire, to wish
1c) to love
1c1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
1d) to take delight in, have pleasure
Part of Speech: verb - Thayer's.

As we can see, the word has a range of meanings, to be determined by context and usage.

According to the verse, and the other usages in the chapter, it is clear that 'to will' refers to 'desire or wish, to love, to like to do, be fond of doing, take delight in'. He says to will to good is with him, that is, he desires, wants, wishes, to do good. But how to actually accomplish that desire he does not know. From this we can see that 'to will' does NOT mean 'to choose' as an act of volition, because when one actually chooses a course of action they embark on it, they do it, because the choosing and the doing are the exact same thing.

But, we often say 'I choose ABC' when we actually do not, what we really mean is 'I wish ABC or I want ABC'. A person may say 'I will to eat cheesecake' but they do not eat cheesecake because they are concerned about their girlish figure. So they do not actually WILL it, that is, they do not actually CHOOSE to eat cheesecake, they simply desire to eat it, while also desiring NOT to eat it (or at least desiring not to suffer the fattening consequences of eating it).

When understood in this light, the entire premise that Paul is contrasting 'will power' with 'supernatural divine aid' falls apart. The contrast is between mere desire for something, and actually doing it. Which Paul identifies in the next chapter when he says the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in those who walk after the Spirit and not the flesh, and that this is the result of the death of Christ. Christ's death is what causes people to actually obey God. Thus, righteousness as a lifestyle is said to be imparted from God to man, it is the power of God working in a person both to will and to do His good pleasure.

The "want to", or will power is the same, principally. Paul wanted to perform the law but couldn't. His heart was in agreement with doing the will of God. That goes along with the last verse in Romans 7. As far his mind was concerned he did the will of God. But his flesh served sin... He said he was sold under sin earlier, too. Slavery.

All those verses show he had desire but not ability. How does this do away with divine empowerment? Why do you think Paul taught us to come with the understanding that we are are alive to God after he taught that only happens after we die to sin first in 6:13.

Paul wanted to obey law and could not. He also said in Galatians 5 that only so long as we walk after the Spirit do we not fulfill lusts of the flesh. This is what I am saying.

I see no difference between will power and wanting to do something or wishing it. In my use they're the same thing.

I will deal more thoroughly with your response later when I have the time. But I fail to see how your thoughts prove my proposition wrong.

To will is to desire. But desire is not enough. Then Paul said he served law of sin instead. He wanted to do good. Then he did evil instead. Note why would he follow up on willing to do good with saying he did evil instead? It's like I've personally experienced. Wanting to do good and the more I use natural energy to fulfill that, I do worse. I lived that stuff. He said he willed but instead sinned, indicating the attempt to do that good and failing.

Wishing to do good doesn't prove he didn't try to do that good. Context doesn't require him to add more than the reference to wish, because of its guiltiness experienced afterward that he indicated. How else does the next chapter and first verse make sense to follow this passage by speaking of no condemnation to those who don't walk after flesh busy instead walk after Spirit?

Someone who delights in doing something obviously tries to do it. So the delight concept doesn't change anything in what I'm proposing unless you missed what I am saying.

To say he would do good, but evil was present with him is to indicate an attempt followed by failure. Study "would do good."

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Walking after the Spirit is leaning on divine help of the Spirit. Grace means divine empowerment. Walking after the flesh is leaning on natural power to do it.